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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    161
    Originally posted by alex_in_fl
    And how do we get the power for electrolysis?
    Apoligies, I didnt read your post " R-12: Again, I ask, how do you get the H2 gas from the water? I can and have done the research. How do you get the Hydrogen from the water? " correctly.

    Here's some excerpts from some lit, although the PEM fuel cells seems to make a lot of $ sense intead of using straight hydrogen:

    "Hydrogen is difficult to store and distribute, so it would be much more convenient if fuel cells could use fuels that are more readily available. This problem is addressed by a device called a reformer. A reformer turns hydrocarbon or alcohol fuels into hydrogen, which is then fed to the fuel cell. Unfortunately, reformers are not perfect. They generate heat and produce other gases besides hydrogen. They use various devices to try to clean up the hydrogen, but even so, the hydrogen that comes out of them is not pure, and this lowers the efficiency of the fuel cell.

    Some of the more promising fuels are natural gas, propane and methanol. Many people have natural-gas lines or propane tanks at their house already, so these fuels are the most likely to be used for home fuel cells. Methanol is a liquid fuel that has similar properties to gasoline. It is just as easy to transport and distribute, so methanol may be a likely candidate to power fuel-cell cars.

    "



    "Since fuel cells convert hydrogen into electricity, the main question on everybody's mind is “Where and how am I going to get the hydrogen to fuel up my fuel cell car?” If auto engineers choose to store hydrogen compounds on board the vehicle, tomorrow's fuel infrastructure would look a lot like today's. Many other options are being explored to deliver hydrogen to fuel cell vehicles (FCVs).

    *Centralized production and delivery. Hydrogen production and delivery services – including a limited pipeline system – already serve the needs of today's industrial demand.

    *On-Site Production. The energy station of the future might produce hydrogen on demand from natural gas, other compounds or even water.

    *Innovative Approaches. Fuel cell products that generate electrical power sometimes come with hydrogen generators called Reformers. An energy station might purchase one of these units, use the electricity for operations and tap into the reformer to produce hydrogen for vehicles.
    Power from the sun.

    *The ultimate solution might be solar powered hydrogen filling stations, where electricity generated by the sun (or by a windmill) is used to extract hydrogen from water. This is not as far out as it sounds. Two such stations already are operating in Southern California.

    "

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Kathleen GA
    Posts
    236
    UCP

    You are getting close to the point I wanted to make. H2 fuel cells are not necessarily the answer to everything. You still have to generate the H2. That means you burn coal, petroleum, natural gas or similar to generate electricity to undergo electrolysis to generate H2. Alternatively you reformulate petroleum or natural gas products. Regardless of which approach is taken, the H2 generation requires energy consumption.

    So H2 is not free nor is it the solution to everything. Second, fuel cells will still require use of coal, natural gas, or petroleum and thus is NOT pollution free. It will, however, allow relocating the pollution source outside of cities and similar.

    Alex

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    1,864
    Originally posted by alex_in_fl
    UCP

    You are getting close to the point I wanted to make. H2 fuel cells are not necessarily the answer to everything. You still have to generate the H2. That means you burn coal, petroleum, natural gas or similar to generate electricity to undergo electrolysis to generate H2. Alternatively you reformulate petroleum or natural gas products. Regardless of which approach is taken, the H2 generation requires energy consumption.

    So H2 is not free nor is it the solution to everything. Second, fuel cells will still require use of coal, natural gas, or petroleum and thus is NOT pollution free. It will, however, allow relocating the pollution source outside of cities and similar.

    Alex
    Just like hydro.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    161
    alex_in_fl

    I thought that was what you were trying to get across.

    Well, your right. And in addition:

    Energy required to manufacture all componets needed. Raw materials cost too, and labor to build and install. What disposal issues when needing to be replaced, any hazardous waste? How often componets might need replaced/maintained and thier cost. When you sit down and do the potential numbers, I would strongly agree with you.





  5. #44
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Sherman, TX
    Posts
    254

    An Idea.....

    Since an alternator generally is capable of putting out about 20 more amps than what is needed to run the vehicle, why couldn't we put a small electrolysis tank on them and pump the Hydrogen and Oxygen to the motor. That should cut down on fuel usage, and therefore cut emissions. I know that this is not the ideal situation, but it would be an improvement.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    161

    Re: An Idea.....

    Originally posted by rookie903
    Since an alternator generally is capable of putting out about 20 more amps than what is needed to run the vehicle, why couldn't we put a small electrolysis tank on them and pump the Hydrogen and Oxygen to the motor. That should cut down on fuel usage, and therefore cut emissions. I know that this is not the ideal situation, but it would be an improvement.
    Maybe the only issue is storage then, you might have to thing about compressing these gasses somehow without blowing up something. I wonder H or O could be used to advantage in todays existing gasoline engines?

    I see that there are also a few thermoelectric devices available for semi's. The attach these things to those exhaust stacks to generate power.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Kathleen GA
    Posts
    236
    Actually there are some diesel trucks that have small hydrogen tanks. It helps them burn more efficiently and thus get a little better mileage.

    Interesting idea on the generator. The problem might be that the generator doesn't run at 100% all the time and making it run at 100% would make a drag on the motor. Again, that is an intesting idea.

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Kathleen GA
    Posts
    236
    Actually there are some diesel trucks that have small hydrogen tanks. It helps them burn more efficiently and thus get a little better mileage.

    Interesting idea on the generator. The problem might be that the generator doesn't run at 100% all the time and making it run at 100% would make a drag on the motor. Again, that is an intesting idea.

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