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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,739
    good point delta t, From what I have seen Its not the concept that goes sour its the people who run things get greedy and paranoid, and start making bad decisions. The whole mafia thing in the union, thats scary. It seems when you get a whole lot of people together there seems to be some sort of breakdown of the system internally. The recent folding of big financial bussiness's (ENRON) because a few CEO's lied and cheated to help themselves, left a large group of honest hard working people out in the street or worse. This seems to hold for political systems as well (communism) The corruption comes from within. There are always people who want to make a buck at other peoples expense, and as they go deeper into the "dark side" they don't really care if a lot of people get killed in the process. Look at these south american contries, the power goes back and forth from military to dictator to drug lords. It seems that there always is someone to fill that gap. Who has time to find out all that is going on to fight this? we all work and do the best we can, if you get in the union, well your there, if not your somewhere else. Between house payments and kids how can we stop this kind of corruption. We read in the newspapers that a doctor is killing people, a judge is raping, government contracts are forged and never delivered. Its the people. thats where the moral part comes in, but I don't think you can influence wholly from the outside, somewhere we decide that something is not right and we don't do it. I have seen places where they try to wear you down with " go ahead take that home, we will say we sold it to the customer" and then its more and more, after a while you start thinking yeah thats right. But its not. I guess its an everyday struggle for everyone, and if you follow blindly whithout asking WHY? this is what happens.
    there but for the grace of god, go all of us

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Memphis TN USA
    Posts
    6,945
    Supply and demand always works in economics. The union get a higher wage than economics of supply and demand mores that job to a cheaper labor market.

    It is hard to send your AC to China to repair it. Service unions tend to be stronger in the long run than production unions.
    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836

    Re: Re: Unions, Unions, Unions

    Originally posted by air1
    Originally posted by infwsdm
    On the one hand unions helped get rid of the slave labor that was going on in good ole USA. Some companies would work their workers from dusk till dawn with minimal pay and no breaks.


    On the other hand, once the union took over and made things better for the workers the backlash was that the workers thought they were entitled everything. They no longer had to earn their way because they felt it should be given to them and they turned arrogant. You give a little, they take a lot

    The Union was a good Idea and helped this country. However, once the arrogance took over and wages raised higher than what the position was worth it just ran up the price of goods.

    I know guys, in the carpenters union making 30 bucks an hr + benefits, who can't read.
    infwsdm

    I agree with you in that the unions are mostly responsible for their own demise. They kept pushing the limits to what was fair and created so much bureaucracy that it drove the cost of doing business way up. This created a backlash in society that led to unions being perceived as tyrants. That combined with the connections to organized crime, takes away from the noble intent of unions to alow workers to organize for better compensation.

    I do not work for a union. If I were smart I would have enrolled in a union at a young age instead of putting myself through school and working for non-union shops. If I had worked for a union shop I would be much better off than I am now. I have been in this trade for 16 years and really don't have much to show for it other than a bad back and a kick in the ass. The union whould have put me through school, gave me a decent wage, good health care benifits and a pension that I would qualify for in four more years.

    I have had several union companys want to hire me but they were not allowed to because of union politics. This left a bad taste in my mouth but that's because I was on the outside looking in. If I were on the inside looking out I think I would feel different. I have worked non-union all my life and feel like I was used and dicarded like a expendable commodity. That's why despite my bad experiences I still support unions.

    You might say that a person can do the same in the private sector. I don't know about that. The type of work we do is very physical and I can't imagine a person working for a non-union shop to the age of 65 to collect SS and use his 401K. A non-union shop would find a reason to let you go as soon as you were unable to perform the job. Then what? At least with the union, they will look after you.

    If you had a choice between $15/hr and no benifits or $30/hr with excelent benifits, what would you choose?

    Though the didn't work with us for 20 years,we have had 3 service techs retire at 65 ,didn't want any of them to leave.In fact one worked partime for a couple of years after retirement.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Waterford Michigan
    Posts
    2,668
    A union is a democratic entity that relies on the involvement of its membership for direction. The people who complain the most about unions are mostly racist right-wingers that sit on the sidelines *****en about everyone else.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Coastal Georgia
    Posts
    34,902
    Originally posted by johnl45
    A union is a democratic entity that relies on the involvement of its membership for direction. The people who complain the most about unions are mostly racist right-wingers that sit on the sidelines *****en about everyone else.
    Oh, that's a new twist. Let's play the race card, Jesse

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    East Grand Forks, MN
    Posts
    1,373
    A union is a democratic entity that relies on the involvement of its membership for direction. The people who complain the most about unions are mostly racist right-wingers that sit on the sidelines *****en about everyone else.

    There's a racist comment.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    South East, MO
    Posts
    400
    "ditto"
    I believe in the dignity of labor, whether with head or hand; that the world owes no man a living but that it owes every man an opportunity to make a living.
    ***********
    A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined,
    but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a
    status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them,
    which would include their own government.
    --George Washington

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    San Jose, Ca
    Posts
    2,089
    Originally posted by air1
    How do Union workers rationalize voting for Republican candidates. It makes no sense to vote for a party that hates Unions when you work for a Union and enjoy the benefits they provide. If you work for a union and vote republican you should quit your job and work for a company where your wages and benefits are determine by supply and demand.


    [Edited by air1 on 07-29-2004 at 03:39 PM]
    I do not vote single issue. Every canidate has some good and bad. Most canidates are more bad than good. I have never voted for a canidate for Pres. I have always votes against. The better of two or more evils. I wish we could vote none of the above.
    Len
    Old snipes don't die they just loose their steam

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan
    Posts
    454
    Originally posted by jfs1138
    There is a very interesting article in the washington post HERE Sorry, registration required. Here's a short quote.

    Breaking sharply with the enforced harmony of the Democratic National Convention, the president of the largest AFL-CIO union said Monday that both organized labor and the Democratic Party might be better off in the long run if Sen. John F. Kerry loses the election.
    That was Andrew L. Stern the head of the SEIU. A pretty large union that isn't going to be supporting Mr Kerry.
    That's VERY surprising - since it's a government union. Bigger government (ala Democrat control) means more government union employees....

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan
    Posts
    454
    Originally posted by air1
    How do Union workers rationalize voting for Republican candidates. It makes no sense to vote for a party that hates Unions when you work for a Union and enjoy the benefits they provide. If you work for a union and vote republican you should quit your job and work for a company where your wages and benefits are determine by supply and demand.


    [Edited by air1 on 07-29-2004 at 03:39 PM]
    One possible reason is that highly paid union employees, like highly paid Gay and lesbian professional types, CAN'T AFFORD NOT to vote republican.

    There are no reason I can think of that gatys would vote republican except financial ones - they are opposed on nearly every social issue.

    The progressivity that the Dems insist on trying to boil into the tax code punishes financial success.

    Eric K

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    1,018
    Funny how money changes peoples principles.
    "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten". --Benjamin Franklin
    "Don't argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience". --Mark Twain
    http://www.campbellmechanical.com

  12. #51
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
    Posts
    439
    F**k unions and the idiots that support them.

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    1,018
    A real classy response wood mech.
    "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten". --Benjamin Franklin
    "Don't argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience". --Mark Twain
    http://www.campbellmechanical.com

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