Hacks, Hacks, Hacks

[nicholasa]

20+ years building - same framer, same rocker, same plumber, same electrician, trim guys come and go BUT HVAC!! try a new one every few months.
Why are so many people going "DIY", why pay someone $$$$ to do a hack job, when you can "hack" it yourself.
Rant over
Serious, in 20 years I have yet to find a long term sole proprietor

Nick

[Shamoke]

20+ years building - same framer, same rocker, same plumber, same electrician, trim guys come and go BUT HVAC!! try a new one every few months.
Why are so many people going "DIY", why pay someone $$$$ to do a hack job, when you can "hack" it yourself.
Rant over
Serious, in 20 years I have yet to find a long term sole proprietor

Nick

Thats because we have never met.
I'd venture a guess that the people you have meet in this business have not been members here or even know that this forum exists. Most people on here show a willingness to continue learning this trade even after they have been doing it for years and years. Maybe a few come here initially to show off their knowledge but most soon learn that they don't know as much as they thought they did. That's the kind of people you want working for you. Just my opinion of course.

[KLEINman]

What area ya in, find someone on here that is local and try em out!

[SkyHeating]

My company has been used by the largest home builder in Oregon for almost 15 years until the recession hit. If we don't work with a builder anymore it is because they arn't in business or cut costs. The problem I see with builders(assuming your a builder) is that so many look at price, who buys a house based on the HVAC system? Most homeowners look at granite countertops first so why spend $500 extra on a quality HVAC contractor. Many companies do new construction at cost to get the work now, so when a repair comes up they won't warranty it or they cut costs on the installation, pay a quality certified HVAC contractor and I bet you will happy but you will pay more for it.

[flange]

the thing is, in the beginning guys do new construction thinking that "getting an in with builders is longterm work". They slowly find out that builders care about price per square foot and always want it cheaper, cut corners in many cases, slow pay, and do one of two things. Either the guy learns how to price correctly and moves on, or goes out of business because the builderdrove him there, see above. it is a rare builder who cares about quality, and even more rare for them to use a contractor based upon that in lieu of price. people in thiss country are extremely price conscious, and dont generally give a rats ass about their systems being right. many never do laod calcs. treat them like dirt and thats what you get in return. to be fair, the hvac is the heart of the home, yet it gets treated like an afterthought anymore. live for a while with a poor installation and you will realize how important it really is.

[SkyHeating]

I should also add that back in the 1950's HVAC system was about 6-10% of the cost of building a house, today it is about 3%. If any builders in portland oregon need a new HVAC contractor we do load calcs on EVERY hours even if it is a 1200 sq foot new construction ranch. I give full energy analysis details and speak to every homeowner if allowed or wanted. This should be done but never is. We are a great area for heatpumps yet I see maybe 2-4 new construction houses putting them in out of the 800 houses we did in 2008. If we talk to the homeowner that number jumps to almost 60% The builder wins from having a happy homeowner with super low bills we win from the upsell and the customer wins in the down the road savings and comfort.

[genduct]

SkyHtg has the right idea, but isn't the real problem that it's an apples and oranges situation UNLESS you have an independent person do the loads and provide at least a basic duct layout? Just think if that duct layout was coordinated with the framing instead of an after thought? WOW
Wouldn't that approach be the same as the rest of your job? You do the work as reflected in the PLANS, not a brown paper bag sketch.

I know someone who can do that for you. check my profile and send an email if you would like to change your approach.

Isn't the definition of insanity, you keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result?

[nicholasa]

I am a "one of builder" and rehab about 10 houses a year, plus maintain about 30 properties.
I have never shopped price, but I do not like paying top dollar for some one to do hack work, or for me to have to go back over them and redo it.
I just want someone who is proud of their work, period.

[skippedover]

The real problem is the 1-year warranty. By that I mean that the buildier/GC is responsible for the entire home and any repairs needed for the 1st year after it is built or sold. That allows the GC to cut corners anywhere there's an opportunity and almost anything will last at least 1-year. We've bid many a job for builders but we also continue to service everything we install. So if we do a hack job, we'd be plagued with complaints long after the builder has vanished from the scene. So here's my solutiuon for you.

You make a moral, ethical and complete committment to guarantee all of the major elements of the home for 10-years. That means the electrical sytem, the plumbing system, the roof, framing, insulation, drywall, plaster, foundation or slab, HVAC, windows, doors, septic (if used), ashpalt. All of the major mechanical structures and utilities in the home. Naturally you'd require annual maintenance on those items that need maintenance, like gutters, HVAC, plumbing (water heaters, faucet checks, etc.) and electrical. Failure to do annual maintenance would void the warranty (congratulations, you can now offer the warranty but won't ever have to honor it because nobody will do all the annual mainteanances needed, they think they can do it all themselves!) and you'd be off the hook for that system. But do you suddenly see the effect? No warranty on the appliances, counter tops, cabinets, flooring, those things that get daily use and can be replaced easily.

How would that affect the way you search for HVAC companies? First, you'd have to abandon the 'sole proprietor' company. Now you need a company that will install and still be there in 10-years. You'd need a company that actually does a room-by-room load analysis, Manual 'J', Manual 'D' for ducts, Manual 'S' for equipment selection and Manual 'T' for all those supply registers and return grilles, designs for low static. Maybe, to keep things nice and quiet with the customer, you'd encourage them to spend more on the multi-stage equipment with variable speed drives giving lower energy bills, quieter operation, greater comfort, longer heating & cooling cycles.

Until laws are passed that require such guarantees, builders will continue to blame the trade, when in fact, it's the builder's own policies that are creating the problem. You'd probably throw a legitimate company off the property when they gave you a quote for a properly designed and installed system. It's likely 66% to 100% higher than what you've been paying. Shocked? See the problem?

[Shamoke]

The real problem is the 1-year warranty. By that I mean that the buildier/GC is responsible for the entire home and any repairs needed for the 1st year after it is built or sold. That allows the GC to cut corners anywhere there's an opportunity and almost anything will last at least 1-year. We've bid many a job for builders but we also continue to service everything we install. So if we do a hack job, we'd be plagued with complaints long after the builder has vanished from the scene. So here's my solutiuon for you.

You make a moral, ethical and complete committment to guarantee all of the major elements of the home for 10-years. That means the electrical sytem, the plumbing system, the roof, framing, insulation, drywall, plaster, foundation or slab, HVAC, windows, doors, septic (if used), ashpalt. All of the major mechanical structures and utilities in the home. Naturally you'd require annual maintenance on those items that need maintenance, like gutters, HVAC, plumbing (water heaters, faucet checks, etc.) and electrical. Failure to do annual maintenance would void the warranty (congratulations, you can now offer the warranty but won't ever have to honor it because nobody will do all the annual mainteanances needed, they think they can do it all themselves!) and you'd be off the hook for that system. But do you suddenly see the effect? No warranty on the appliances, counter tops, cabinets, flooring, those things that get daily use and can be replaced easily.

How would that affect the way you search for HVAC companies? First, you'd have to abandon the 'sole proprietor' company. Now you need a company that will install and still be there in 10-years. You'd need a company that actually does a room-by-room load analysis, Manual 'J', Manual 'D' for ducts, Manual 'S' for equipment selection and Manual 'T' for all those supply registers and return grilles, designs for low static. Maybe, to keep things nice and quiet with the customer, you'd encourage them to spend more on the multi-stage equipment with variable speed drives giving lower energy bills, quieter operation, greater comfort, longer heating & cooling cycles.

Until laws are passed that require such guarantees, builders will continue to blame the trade, when in fact, it's the builder's own policies that are creating the problem. You'd probably throw a legitimate company off the property when they gave you a quote for a properly designed and installed system. It's likely 66% to 100% higher than what you've been paying. Shocked? See the problem?

I can't argue with your logic but not all sole proprietors are hacks or fly by night companies and I, at least, intend to be around more than 10 years. But like I said, I've no problem with the rest of your post.

[Greg M]

Most people that want to do the job right don't even bother with builders because we know that it's all about price. I can't do a proper install around here for what builders pay.

What I do get is a complete system change out years later because the original system was not installed properly.

BTW, when someone deals with the sole proprietor they are dealing with the one that has the license and that person is the one actually doing the work. Sure there are hacks out there but to say that all sole proprietors aren't worth dealing with is absolutely wrong. I've had these big companies lie to customers to steal the job from me even at a higher price. I've been here 10 years and will be for more then another 10.

[btuhack]

20+ years building - same framer, same rocker, same plumber, same electrician, trim guys come and go BUT HVAC!! try a new one every few months.
Why are so many people going "DIY", why pay someone $$$$ to do a hack job, when you can "hack" it yourself.
Rant over
Serious, in 20 years I have yet to find a long term sole proprietor

Nick

Sorry for the frustration.
Hack jobs and hack it yourself jobs are great for business but not in the HO's best interest or ...or yours... or the trade's.

The audience that you've picked is alot less likely to be the offenders and more inclined be committed to correct proceedures and industry standards. The forum's intent isn't to perpetuate hack activity so don't be offended if we don't get our shorts too bunched up with your comments.

I know a lot of GC's that are way to eager to under pay, slow pay, or throw a guy under the bus at a drop of the hat. They share your gripes coincidentally.

PS 20 years is a long time to be in business and not ask for work that complies with industry standards/practices or meets a specification. When you go out to eat, do you ask the waiter for $25.00 worth of food or pay for undercooked steak? I bet your time would be better served researching out a solution.