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Thread: union?

  1. #27
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    Jul 2004
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    Do you guys know when they usually accept people or do the unions accept people year round? Is there a deadline to apply? WHen do the classes start?

  2. #28
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    Jun 2001
    Location
    Michigan
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    I feel so drained on this issue talking about it here.

    I think there is some huge miscommunication and misinformation about "UNION" affiliation.

    I have said this about a million times on here.

    The trades unions. The Plumbers, Pipefitters, IBEW, Masons, are not the UAW, The Teamsters, The whatever other they got out there. There completetly different. Totally different in structure, totally different in mindset and culture. Totally different.

    The only thing I can say. As a union tradesmen, be it carpenter or a Refrigeration guy or an electricican. You better know your stuff. Cause you aint making a 100 grand or close to it with that retireent and all those bennies to stand on your head and look good. The only way a union tradesman can survive is by performing well. The dollars are great for a guy who is good. But a union contractor expects it as well. He's the guy who's paying the bucks to employ you as a union man, and he expects you to be top notch. If your not, you will go home. I garuntee you that.

    Every one has these conspiracy theories about the unions, like were a fricken steel mill union. Or UAW or Teamsters. It's completely different. The only way a union shop can survive is on their perfomance. I agree. The money to pay a union guy, it's huge comparing it to paying a non union man as a tradesman. But contractors who are signatory all see a huge gap in knowledge, performance, proffesionalism, training, future, retirement. So they are union. One thinks that if a shop is union that it's all forced. No one can force a mechanical contractor to not be or be union. The Contractor chooses this. The Tech or Mechanic, the top guys, go where the money is the best. It's very simple.

  3. #29
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    Originally posted by Dowadudda
    No one can force a mechanical contractor to not be or be union. The Contractor chooses this. The Tech or Mechanic, the top guys, go where the money is the best. It's very simple.
    This is completely wrong and one of the reasons I am so against unions. If a union organizer gets a companies workforce to vote union the company MUST comply with the union or go out of business. I have been there as a business and beat the union in the same way that Frank Purdue of Purdue Chickens beat the unions, by letting the employees know that if they voted union there would be no company the next day.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  4. #30
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    Okay, that was a bit too much from me. I know where you come from and beleive me I do understand your opinion Robo. I do understand your side. I just think for a mechanic, and for a contractor it's a good thing, more positives than negatives to it. Is it for everyone? No. But you can not put the trades unions in the smae category as other types of unions, and it seems you refute that idea.

    I am a contractor, and in the last 9 months or so I have spoken to about a dozen mechanical contractors of sizes from 7 man shops to about twenty man shops. Basically your average size. I have been researching this for my own thing. And the owners themselves really want to be signatory. They all seem to have been union prior to starting on their own, and they all felt strongly about being in. They all seem to think it is a good thing for them and their bottom line and what not. I guess from where I sit, and the people I have spoken to from the owners points of veiw. They simply want to be in the union and so they belong and are union shops.

    Let me just ask you point blank. In your own words. Why don't you think it's a good thing??

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Middle of Florida
    Posts
    2,159
    There are good unions and bad, one thing that never changes.
    Once you go union you lose your rights, as odd as that sounds it is true. Once you get the card and sign it, the union becomes your agent. you lose all rights that you once had, including suing the union.
    The union in effect becomes your mouth piece in all matters. after you finish your apprenticeship you can go to the bench for lesser paying apprentices. It is a cycle that works well for the unions, they love members, members mean dues, dues mean money. If put on the bench ie layed off and you do not pay dues you lose. I have seen many old timers who did not make the grade anymore lose everything just short of retirement. they get benched then can not make dues, get a non union job to make dues, union finds out cuts them lose, benifits and all.
    They can not sue because when they joined they gave up that right, read all small print, like I said there are good and BAD!
    If common sense is so common how come so few of us have it!

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    chicago suburbs
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    4,422
    Originally posted by secorp
    There are good unions and bad, one thing that never changes.
    Once you go union you lose your rights, as odd as that sounds it is true. Once you get the card and sign it, the union becomes your agent. you lose all rights that you once had, including suing the union.
    The union in effect becomes your mouth piece in all matters. after you finish your apprenticeship you can go to the bench for lesser paying apprentices. It is a cycle that works well for the unions, they love members, members mean dues, dues mean money. If put on the bench ie layed off and you do not pay dues you lose. I have seen many old timers who did not make the grade anymore lose everything just short of retirement. they get benched then can not make dues, get a non union job to make dues, union finds out cuts them lose, benifits and all.
    They can not sue because when they joined they gave up that right, read all small print, like I said there are good and BAD!



    i don't know what you are talking about not being able to sue the union. one of my union instructors, who happens to have a PHD, decided to run against the incumbent for prez. he was instructor for about 14 yrs. real sharp. he was removed from his position. started a newsletter and really became a thorn in thier side. they sued him regarding his newsletter and he got suspended. he sued the union recently and got some money back. so unions are far from perfect. but he was able to take the union to court. he now works for my company on a different job.
    FILL OUT YOUR PROFILE!!

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Earth
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    4,879
    The logic of some people never ceases to amaze me. They preach how the evil Unions, are out to get you. Then tell you we are going to pay you about ten dollars less, in your total package. Of course you have to see how you will be much better off. Your family probably won’t ever get sick, and heck you’ll never retire anyway. You can always shop at Wal-Mart.

    Go ahead, I encourage everyone to consider all the opinions put forth here. I am sure most here are smart enough see the true differences between the two points of view.

    This continuous never ending debate, tires me. Even so, I will always meet this anti-union rhetoric, with plain simple reality. I have said it before, I have been non-union and I am now union. Union is better.
    A Diamond is just a piece of coal, that made good under pressure!

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    6,579
    Originally posted by tinner73
    Originally posted by secorp
    There are good unions and bad, one thing that never changes.
    Once you go union you lose your rights, as odd as that sounds it is true. Once you get the card and sign it, the union becomes your agent. you lose all rights that you once had, including suing the union.
    The union in effect becomes your mouth piece in all matters. after you finish your apprenticeship you can go to the bench for lesser paying apprentices. It is a cycle that works well for the unions, they love members, members mean dues, dues mean money. If put on the bench ie layed off and you do not pay dues you lose. I have seen many old timers who did not make the grade anymore lose everything just short of retirement. they get benched then can not make dues, get a non union job to make dues, union finds out cuts them lose, benifits and all.
    They can not sue because when they joined they gave up that right, read all small print, like I said there are good and BAD!



    i don't know what you are talking about not being able to sue the union. one of my union instructors, who happens to have a PHD, decided to run against the incumbent for prez. he was instructor for about 14 yrs. real sharp. he was removed from his position. started a newsletter and really became a thorn in thier side. they sued him regarding his newsletter and he got suspended. he sued the union recently and got some money back. so unions are far from perfect. but he was able to take the union to court. he now works for my company on a different job.

    Here is an interesting fact about union instructors. Union instructors work for the union which makes the union their employer. I am talking about full-time instructors for the union. Since the union is both the union members (instructors) union and employer it turns out that there is a problem if the union whom the instructor works for is both his union and employer. Bottom line is if the instructor has a disagreement with the union which is his employer, the instructor has no representation. So, if there is an issue between them the instructor looses. The only thing the instructor can do is sue. Try to win a lawsuit against a union and win. It can be done but the union has lots of money and retains full-time lawyers.

    Bottom line is that union instructors end up doing exactly as they are told or they lose their jobs. Teaching for the union can be very, very, political. The instructor cannot do what he believes is right, he does what he is ordered to do or else!



  9. #35
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    Sep 2002
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    South Dakota
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    6,579
    Originally posted by frozensolid
    The logic of some people never ceases to amaze me. They preach how the evil Unions, are out to get you. Then tell you we are going to pay you about ten dollars less, in your total package. Of course you have to see how you will be much better off. Your family probably won’t ever get sick, and heck you’ll never retire anyway. You can always shop at Wal-Mart.

    Go ahead, I encourage everyone to consider all the opinions put forth here. I am sure most here are smart enough see the true differences between the two points of view.

    This continuous never ending debate, tires me. Even so, I will always meet this anti-union rhetoric, with plain simple reality. I have said it before, I have been non-union and I am now union. Union is better.
    That's fine until you challenge the union and hold your ground. Give it a try and see what happens.

  10. #36
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    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    Originally posted by Dowadudda
    Let me just ask you point blank. In your own words. Why don't you think it's a good thing??
    Working union can certainly be a good thing for an employee even if there are layoffs and even if the company or industry that person is working in goes belly up and and/or outsourced. So yes, an individual can make more money by working under a union. I would never fault someone for wanting to better themselves by going for higher wages to do the same job. I will object when union workers try to justify their wages by not acknowledging the damage that unions are doing to the United States economy. If the 85% of the merit shop workers of a particular trade are making $20 an hour and the 15% of these workers that are unionized are making $25 an hour, maybe the union guys are simply overpaid. This will catch up to all of us as all of us have to pay not only the extra wages but the union organizers and bosses as well. There is no free lunch.

    Most union labor in the building trades is bolstered by the Federal government by forcing the "prevailing wage scale" of government projects to what the union companies are paying. Since it is taxpayers money that is paying for the additional costs required to do a job under union wage standards, every taxpayer loses. Government projects could be completed for much less if they were allowed to be done at competitive prices rather than forced to be done at inflated "prevailing wages".

    So, I have nothing against a person who goes for the most money they can make for as long as it lasts. What I am against is an organization that is destroying not just business's but entire industries with their organized crime methods of operation in holding all Americans hostage if they don't get what they want.

    Unions of today are bullies that threaten and beat up all Americans that don't hand over their lunch money to them. The way unions get enough public support is to force companies to overpay the workers who then become loyal to their higher wages.

    We simply cannot continue to thrive as a nation under the high cost of doing business that unions create.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  11. #37
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    Feb 2004
    Location
    chicago suburbs
    Posts
    4,422
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by NormChris
    [B]
    Originally posted by tinner73
    Originally posted by secorp
    There are good unions and bad, one thing that never changes.
    Once you go union you lose your rights, as odd as that sounds it is true. Once you get the card and sign it, the union becomes your agent. you lose all rights that you once had, including suing the union.
    The union in effect becomes your mouth piece in all matters. after you finish your apprenticeship you can go to the bench for lesser paying apprentices. It is a cycle that works well for the unions, they love members, members mean dues, dues mean money. If put on the bench ie layed off and you do not pay dues you lose. I have seen many old timers who did not make the grade anymore lose everything just short of retirement. they get benched then can not make dues, get a non union job to make dues, union finds out cuts them lose, benifits and all.
    They can not sue because when they joined they gave up that right, read all small print, like I as the said there are good and BAD!



    i don't know what you are talking about not being able to sue the union. one of my union instructors, who happens to have a PHD, decided to run against the incumbent for prez. he was instructor for about 14 yrs. real sharp. he was removed from his position. started a newsletter and really became a thorn in thier side. they sued him regarding his newsletter and he got suspended. he sued the union recently and got some money back. so unions are far from perfect. but he was able to take the union to court. he now works for my company on a different job.

    Here is an interesting fact about union instructors. Union instructors work for the union which makes the union their employer. I am talking about full-time instructors for the union. Since the union is both the union members (instructors) union and employer it turns out that there is a problem if the union whom the instructor works for is both his union and employer. Bottom line is if the instructor has a disagreement with the union which is his employer, the instructor has no representation. So, if there is an issue between them the instructor looses. The only thing the instructor can do is sue. Try to win a lawsuit against a union and win. It can be done but the union has lots of money and retains full-time lawyers.

    Bottom line is that union instructors end up doing exactly as they are told or they lose their jobs. Teaching for the union can be very, very, political. The instructor cannot do what he believes is right, he does what he is ordered to do or else

    i really don't see your point. if this would have been a story about Microsoft instead of the union it probably would not be any different. the bottom line is, once you piss-off the boss you will be on a quick ride out. this happening with my union wasn't the point. this sort of **** happens everywhere. piss-off your boss and see what happens to you. union or not. as far as the instructor jobs being political, sure probably, but the instructors are first and foremost SMART. we don't have any politically connected morons teaching our apprentices. that would be suicide for the union. our apprentices are and should be the best trained. that is what is supposed to separate us from everyone else. as far as the politics go i am sure nobody out there works with the owners moron cousin, son in law, brother, etc who can't find his own ass with both hands and that has no chance of getting fired because of who they are. company politics are everywhere including where you work....get over it.



    btw.....if YOU don't have to do as your ordered to do at your job, then you just might be that owner's moron relative.

    [Edited by tinner73 on 07-26-2004 at 12:48 AM]
    FILL OUT YOUR PROFILE!!

  12. #38
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    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    Originally posted by ballvalve
    Robo Im not sure what market area you are in but in my area Scab contractors charge more money per hour than the union contractors. What hurts is how the scabs treat thier people. One perfect example was a large electrical contractor who had a job at a local post office and had to pay prevailing wages on that job. He forced all of the men who were working on that job to work 8 hours there and then another 4 hours on another job for free. Hmmmmmm.
    Give me a break here. You are in Eerie PA which is heavy union and you expect us to believe that what you are insultingly calling "Scab" contractors charge more than union contractors AND PEOPLE ACTUALLY HIRE THOSE ROTTEN SCABS? If you're going to make stuff up at least try to make it somewhat believable.

    And of course everyone is going to believe that a highly illegal action such as forcing workers to work for no pay is so readily known by yourself and no one does anything about this.

    This is so typical of the willingness of union workers to flat out make up things to try to make unions sound better.

    Do you have one shred of proof of anything you have posted?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  13. #39
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    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    68,981
    Here is a portion of a 1903 speech on Scabs;

    THE SCAB
    (Speech first given before the Oakland Socialist Party Local, April 5, 1903)


    In addition to the use of bricks, clubs, and bullets, the selfish laborer finds it necessary to express his feelings in speech. Just as the peaceful country-dweller calls the sea-rover a "pirate," and the stout burgher calls the man who breaks into his strong-box a "robber," so the selfish laborer applies the opprobrious epithet "scab" to the laborer who takes from him food and shelter by being more generous in the disposal of his labor power. The sentimental connotation of "scab" is as terrific as that of "traitor" or "Judas," and a sentimental definition would be as deep and varied as the human heart. It is far easier to arrive at what may be called a technical definition, worded in commercial terms, as, for instance, that a scab is one who gives more value for the same price than another.
    The full speech is here; http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/London/W...sses/scab.html

    What makes this speech really interesting is that it is a pro-union speech that actually spells out the justification for union members to act violently toward, even killing, someone who works when a union worker refuses to.

    The term "scab" is strictly reserved for those who work in the place of striking union workers and is completely misused in previous posts.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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