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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Stockton CA
    Posts
    13

    Exclamation Whoa...that would be "violating their rights!"

    There's no way you would be able to institute a dress code! What would happen to all those football, baseball, and basketball jerseys the Hip Hop students spent their precious dollars on? Or the shorts that are hanging off their a$$ (saggin'). C'mon that's asking too much of them. I mean heaven forbid they would wear a standardized work shirt (like most reputable companies have their employees wear out in the field) to class. You wouldn't want to stiffle their sense of self expression. And arriving on time is just out of the question! it's fashionable to be late, didn't you know?


  2. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,739
    professionalism and ethics are personal accomplishments, not something that can be taught, you guys got screwed at school. How many good teachers did you have when you were in high school. I bet you did not have even 25%, more like one out of 50. If you go to college you will find a similar situation, all this is not tied to trade schools, it is tied to society, if you want it to change you have to do it, and only by example. You will take a lot of backstabbing and gossip, and get fired for doing the right thing. I wonder if you will give up or keep on fighting. You say what you want now, but in 20 years, will you be the "silent brown nosing majority" or the singled out ethical worker? time will tell.
    there but for the grace of god, go all of us

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,635
    Man... you don't know me very well now do you?

    I was a two-year neophyte in this biz and stood down this multi-millionaire boss of mine at the risk of my job because it was the right thing to do. I've done similar things to not so rich and arrogant bosses. Don't misunderstand. I am a BIG believer in doing what the boss says. It's his company and he has every right to ask what he will, except when he asks me to do wrong. My stance came at personal cost. I lost about $3000 in wages in one instance. There were other numerous instances where I took care of things on my own time that the company should have because it was the right thing.

    And for the first eight years in this business I had absolutely no desire to be in my business for myself. I knew the **** my bosses dealt with. I knew that after I went home and forgot work, they were still working and thinking about the biz. I knew the odds were in favor of taking a big hit in income. Why would I want all that hassle? I didn't. But I did it anyway because it was the only way I could finally do the job right. My income took a fat hit this year, but I don't care. For the first time in my life I can do work with complete integrity.

    So no, I will never be a brown nosing schmuck to any man or even the almighty dollar. That last part is important. There's a boat load of so called mavericks here who don't take crap from anyone. Of course, at the same time they're willing to subordinate their own common sense to the dollar. They're not so much the maverick after all. Their noses are more green, than brown. I'll close shop before I let that happen.

    And with respect, ethics are taught all the time. Adults who want to learn ethics do, such as in a conversion to a particular religion. Drunks learn ethics when they commit to rehabilitation. Children have ethics taught and even forced on them all the time - and rightly so. Perhaps we could agree that while the above examples are true, by the time we're adults most of us are set in our ways and will not be taught. If so, the schools may not be able to teach ethics. But they can certainly demand ethical (i.e. decent) behavior while in school. Such demands are placed upon people all the time. It would improve the school's atmosphere.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,739

    Thumbs up

    I believe that ethics should be taught by example in schools also. They say all your basic beliefs are learned in the first ten years. I think you can break those patterns if you have the desire. My point was that indeed. If you want to you can, but it takes extra effort, and you will not be rewared by society in general. BUT you will be rewarded internally. I do believe that our society rewards the people without ethics, and penalizes ( maybe inadvertantly) those who stick up for what they belive is right. I respect someone who sticks up for that, even if I totally diagree with that person. by the way I don't think you are a (brownicus nosicus) or an ( assicus kissicus) you are eraseable! I mean irrational, I mean irate able, confound it what is your screen name???
    there but for the grace of god, go all of us

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,635
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=irascible

    Use of the name is mostly schtick. Yeah... mostly.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,635
    Yeah, but what do you really think lmtd?

  7. #20
    Originally posted by Irascible
    Yeah, but what do you really think lmtd?
    Hot Damn .... now you've opened a can of worms!!!


    Between Lmtd and myself .... we could write on this subject for a very very long time!
    In fact, we could almost out do 9mm, just the two of us.





    This really outa be interesting.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Stockton CA
    Posts
    13

    Talking IMTD...now that's a great idea!

    Wow, send them home if they aren't in required apparel.

    Now when did you tell the students that this was the policy? I would imagine that they were informed on the very first day of class or during the orientation process.

    How many students thought you were not serious about sending them home? How many did you have to send home before they got the hint? Did they ever get the hint?

    I believe that students (people) want to see if you're consistent. Which IMHO is a sign of strength. At my school they came up with several policies that for 30 minutes stood fast...then it was business as usual: swearing profusely, no safety glasses in lab, shorts and tank tops, tardiness, in and out of class,etc. Those who want to comply and desire order (students) are without leadership from the administration or teachers.

    And what's up with all the jailbirds who attempt to get into this field? Ok, ok doing time doesn't automatically make you a loser, but our ex-cons are tattoed, hang out in the parking lot smoking cigs and weed, dress like thugs and disrupt class with sex jokes and cell phone usage!

    I say this: Caca rolls down hill

  9. #22
    Musclehead, since you were offended/aphalled by the performance of the other students it tells me you appreciate order and not caos.

    24 years ago when I was in school .... many wanted caos over order. But the instructors wouldnt stand still for it.
    But there were still many students who were goofing off when they could have been paying attention.


    If I were aninstructor and I had a class or hulligans, I would change schools if I couldnt maintain order in the classroom.
    Part of the job has to do with being the one in charge. And part of it has to do with the attention of the students themselves.

    A student who is constantly cutting up in class, showing off .... is attracting the classes attention AWAY from the lessons being taught.
    In my book, that is robery!

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    6,579
    Classroom Order

    This is accomplished by the following:

    1) Have a well established set of rules and guidelines.

    2) Clearly and firmly state them and make every student sign an agreement that they understand them and will abide by them.

    3) Have a predetermined action of what you will do when and if ANY of them are broken.

    4) Be absolutlely firm and FAIR with your enforcement.

    5) Take IMMEDIATE action when even the least infraction takes place. Keeping on top of the small infractions usually prevents more serious problems. For example, I jump on bad language or shady stories IMMEDIATELY.

    As soon as students realize you are serious, firm and fair while at the same time being friendly and approachable, the easier the instructional job becomes.

    You must start the first day of the first semester and stay on top of this all the time. This has worked well for me.

    Norm

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Stockton CA
    Posts
    13

    Exclamation Disrupters hear this!

    LMTD, I do let people who disrupt the program get to me. it's 100% true. At times I want to give them a piece of my mind for disrespecting the instructor (who's not keen on keeping students in check for fear of a confrontation) and the program by their blatant disruptions.

    I know I'm letting them bother me is because I take this new career I've chosen very seriously and want all to do the same. AND when they don't, I feel that it's "offending" the honor (that's the word I like best) of this profession AND me.

    At 33 years of age I'm realizing more and more that I can't take offense at everything that doesn't jive with how I think things should be. It isn't my dog in the fight so to speak. I'm there at school (which ends this coming Thursday 7-29-04) to learn what I can and not to get tangled up in trying to be the defender of all that is orderly and proper.

    Now I'll tell you one thing that has been brewing in my mind. After having spoke with one of my senior instructors ,and picking his brain, I want to create my own program. From what it sounds like LMTD, you have your own program. I've seen the deficiencies of my school (and am NOT too bitter for being taken for a ride) and have seen the good parts that really impacted my learning. I do have ideas on how to improve and hone the learning process.

    I know that in order for a program to be solid, thorough, and credible, those teaching the course must have field experience! I am working on a course syllabus/curriculum roughly based on my school (well the good parts) along with other teaching aids. "R12rules" spoke of a Mentor which is someone I'm hoping to meet. I'm willing to learn from those who've gone before me.

    Ok, rant is over. Next soap boxer please


  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Middletown, Ohio USA
    Posts
    571

    Thumbs down

    It's amazing. Twenty-odd years ago I attended one of those "tech schools" and experienced the same things-
    gentalia-laced descriptions of HVAC performance, crummy lunch room food, a different instructor every other month,
    junk lab equipment (the good equipment you weren't allowed to touch), and job placement that amounted to various want ads tacked to a cork bulletin board.

    But in retrospect, the thing that aggravated me the most about the whole experience was the line of crap that they kept feeding you over and over again: "When you complete this program, you'll be able to go out into the field and work on just about anything." Right!!! There is no substitute for experience and the "school of hard knocks".

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