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  1. #1
    Hello all,

    Perhaps some of you kind folks can help me out.

    I bought a Hussmann 5 door reach in cooler and an 8 foot hussmann "meat case" which has an open front.

    The tag on the 5 door cooler says R404A, as well as the expansion valve.

    The meat case, however, says R-12 but the condesing unit says it was converted to R-22.

    I have had two people look at these for estimates of installing the condensing units outside the building and running the lines. The lines will run approximately 25 to 30 feet. The two units sit side by side in our store.

    I want to run both at medium temp [R404A i presume]

    Can you guys tell me where the bulk of the expenses come in for the install? I was quoted about $6k to install both, and being a very small business that's like way more than we anticipated.

    I can figure parts might come to $600 [on the high side]. Thats copper, new expansion valves for the meat case, thermostat, wiring and power cut offs outside.

    I guesstimate freon to be fairly expensive, so lets say $1500 for that. So that leaves about $3900 for labor, if he were paid $75 an hour thats 6.5 man - days of labor.

    What am I missing here?

    Thanks for your input,
    Mark

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    prov.r.i.
    Posts
    1,420

    Talking small business

    well what kind of end result do you want?
    if at first you dont succeed,then skydiving is not for you

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Western New York
    Posts
    1,027

    Mark-

    I am in a gentle mode tonight. Please take, or leave my comments, as you wish.

    From your point of view- I have this great equipment, I got it at a good/great/cheap price, now all I have to do is get someone to hook it up! FAST-CHEAP-GOOD.

    From the contractor's point of view- More used sh#t. Never got a call before it was purchased, now make it work.

    Who knows how it worked before, what problems it had in the past. All I know is if I hook it up, all future problems are my fault.

    On your materials list, you forgot quite a few items. Plus, like it or not, the bidders have probably added the % mark-up they would have gotten if they had sold you the equipment, and added an "It's Summer, and I can't keep up with the work from my OWN installs, and servicing my faithful customers.

    Good, Cheap, Fast. If you are lucky, you may get two, never three.

    Perhaps I am very wrong, and you will find a qualified contractor, willing to break down his expenses and profit margin for you, and make that used equipment just like new.

    Best of luck. We are not all thieving A*sholes, but you are not what I would consider a "valuable customer". The path to your doorstep is fraught with danger, for the contractor. Perhaps, you are the exception to my experience. I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
    Experience is what you have an hour after you need it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Guayaquil EC
    Posts
    10,076
    We are not allowed to discuss pricing here. Read the forum rules.

    But.......you get what you pay for. I think you have received fair estimates.

    Sorry Boss.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    SouthEast NC ICW & Piedmont Foothills
    Posts
    7,618

    BAUB

    Come on now,
    Tell us what you REALLY think.

    BULLSEYE....BTW
    It`s better to be silent and thought the fool; than speak and remove all doubt.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    526
    i agree with baub on this, well said

  7. #7
    Senior Tech Guest
    Boss is gonna make Josies post....f.......a......d....e......a....w.....a... ..poof!

  8. #8
    "All I know is if I hook it up, all future problems are my fault. "

    That's a very good point, and no, I didnt over look that.

    I'm not trying to get something done "FAST/GOOD/CHEAP"

    I'm merely trying to understand what is involved in installing this equipment.

    I think my discussion of price should be allowed as I'm not actually asking anyone here for price quotes.

    I realize that you guys are in this business, and sure, have something to protect, but as far as the small business you should have a little more patience, not all of us have dollars oozing out of our pockets.

    Pardon me if I came to the wrong forum looking for advice.
    If anyone knows where the helpful folks hang out, please let me know.

    "Best of luck. We are not all thieving A*sholes, but you are not what I would consider a "valuable customer". The path to your doorstep is fraught with danger, for the contractor. Perhaps, you are the exception to my experience. I sincerely wish you the best of luck"

    You know, with that attitude, I'm supprised you have customers. you dont know if I would be a "valuable customer" .... I'm an honest person, my checks dont bounce, and I dont bs people. Whether you think thats a valuable customer or not, is not mine to argue.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    526
    "I'm merely trying to understand what is involved in installing this equipment. "

    lots and lots of traning to stay on top of the trade and stay efficient.

    and dont forget its used equipment that you didnt buy from the installer

    so he has to make it worth his time to install, were as he could be on

    a job that the customer bought the equipment from him and he knows exactly whats being installed.

    lessins the chances of problems

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    NH & Cebu
    Posts
    1,608
    Originally posted by josiesmarket
    "
    Pardon me if I came to the wrong forum looking for advice.
    If anyone knows where the helpful folks hang out, please let me know.

    try alt.hvac

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Gold Coast of Connecticut
    Posts
    4,542
    Are the compressor units you purchased outdoor units with all low ambient controlls, weather hoods, time clocks mounted and wired, thermostats mounted and wired in the cases, how about drains and drain lines? Is the concrete poured where the units are going and are they set there?

    Just some ideas for you to ponder and I would say that 2 guys for 2 or 3 days to complete and guarantee install the price is goood!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Western New York
    Posts
    1,027

    Mark-

    From your second post-


    "I'm merely trying to understand what is involved in installing this equipment."

    From your initial post-

    "I guesstimate freon to be fairly expensive, so lets say $1500 for that. So that leaves about $3900 for labor, if he were paid $75 an hour thats 6.5 man - days of labor."

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _

    Sure sounds to me like like you aren't "merely trying to understand".


    ************************************************** ************************************************** ******************************************


    "You know, with that attitude, I'm supprised you have customers."

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _

    28 years in business, and I'm "supprised" they are still calling too! But Mark, they do. And I also install/ move a lot of used equipment. But when my price starts getting questioned and dissected, I leave a smile and a thank-you... then find the door.

    Thank-you.





    Experience is what you have an hour after you need it.

  13. #13
    Mark,

    First of all, let's understand the time frame you are working with here. This is peak season for refrigeration service.

    The guys who are doing this work are NOT looking for extra jobs to go install!
    They are NOT seeking out new customers to learn about their ways, their likes and dis-likes.

    These guys are flat out running for their lives!
    They are already working seventy/eighty hours a week!!!
    Some more.

    Unless the service contractor has a specific crew who only does installs, then e has to put together a two or three man crew to go and knock out your project.

    That quote; "Sometimes the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry."
    Well, that also applies to refrigeration projects!

    Service contractors, the good one's, are territorial and controling.
    In a good way!
    They take on a porject and come hell or high water .... that project is going online!!! Period!!!
    They want to own the job. The want to do the job like it was for themselves, unless otherwise cheated due to money not being there to do the job correctly!


    So when you go asking for a breakdown on the price estimate, often times this leads to bad sentiment.
    Now I realise this is a standard proceedure in bidding government jobs. But we're NOT talking gov projects here, now are we? No ... we're not.



    If the guys who gave you that estimate are reputable, then feel free to check their referances with past customers who have had simular work performed, under the same conditions!

    However, if you are NOT comfortable with their estimate, then simply ask around the refrigeration supply houses for referals.
    The supply house guys know who does what and who is any good and who to stay shy of.
    But never question their pricing to you.

    They are not operating a swap meet or a yard sale.
    They dont do business in Saudi Arabia where street merchants haggle over the price of beads or poultry.

    These men and women are professionals anre their pricing is not like some used car lot where they expect you to cheat them down on their first quote.



    If you are asking for a turn key project where the stuff is operating and complete for the inspector, then say so in writing what you expect of the contractor.
    Spell it out.

    You need the equipment in place.
    You need the drains, drain lines and all plumbing from point "A" to the equipment.
    You need all electrical from point "A" to the equiment.

    Etc.
    And make sure you ask the contractor, in advance, if there is anything. ..ANYTHING else which will need to be done, which he will NOT be covering himself.
    What part will you or some other contrctor need to play in the set up and bringing online of this equipment.

    No secrets, no surprises, no "oops".



    I wish I didnt have to bring this up.... but it is a real serious concern.

    There is the "ethnicity card". It is dealing with certain groups of people dont always get along with certain other groups of people.


    You want to make sure that the contrctor with whom you choose to receive a bid from, they like you.


    I am caucasian. I was making a bid to some folks raised in India.
    I was beat out in my bid by a young man who was raised here in the States but his family was raised in India.
    And he was even higher in his bid, to his own ethnic group, than my bid was!!!

    In essence, he was using the ethnic card inhis favor. He was cheating out his own ethnic group!
    And he got away with it because they liked him more than the American guy, me.

    No, I didnt feel slighted.
    I simply had no way to compete against such as that.
    And my bid was actually lower. Lower by a large amount.
    Wait a minute. ....my bid was lower by a HUGE amount of money. And they STILL went with the other guy!!!


    So, "buyer beware".


    Where are you located?

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