Mosque at 'ground zero'?

[RoBoTeq]

I can understand the sentiments of both wgrr and glennac. Constitutionally, we as Americans are afforded equal rights to pursue happiness and strive for betterment of our lives. However, we must not afford Constitutional rights to those who strive to destroy Constitutional rights.

[Tool-Slinger]

I hope you are right about Obama just pandering to the Muslims. Obama does not seem to be aware that when he panders to one group, he alienates himself from others, so maybe that is what he is doing. It would be in line with the way Obama bounces around like someone who is just telling everyone what they want to hear while doing what he wants to do, no matter what.

Of course I am right about obama pandering to mulims. That is obvious. But I did not say 'just pandering' as if it were no big deal. This is a large event. Politically speaking.

Dems up for election are pulling their hair right now.

Obama went against 70% of USA in polling data that he was well aware of. {assuming he is not retarded] Seldom reflected in polling data is a strength/degree issue about the opinion one way or another. I can assure you this is a really hot potato. Filler info. there, but bullet point is that it hurts his own popularity.

He actually had to switch his position in order to do this, that is highly unusual behavior in itself.

Politically dangerous move, in a strategic way. Look at it this way: What if the city were to rescind the permit? Would he then strongly oppose the city!?!? That would be fairly outrageous! Or he would have to flip again? Either way, this could back-fire really bad if that were to happen. I don't know how possible that is, just expecting it probably could be re-visited by the city under what seems to be extraordinary circumstances that may still be developing. What if riots break out? What if some idiot redneck blows it up or goes on a shooting rampage there? What if some muzlim members there hatch a plot and kill a thousand New Yorkers in the subways? Was it really a good idea? Do you still think so, Mr President? In any case, not a smart political move.

The pandering to muzlims is what puzzles me. It was done on an international lever, not simply a national level. Nationally, that is only about 1% of population anyway. Internationally, it seems like a pretty small gesture to me. Soon to be forgotten type. I could be wrong if underestimating how important the mosque would be as a monument for muslims. I am currently doubting the vast majority of muslims really care much either way, internationally speaking. That was a very strange move for obama to make politically.

To clarify my personal position on this, not aimed at you Robo, I think it is a city issue. The constitution allows it. Unless the property is granted national monument status, city issue. Legally. The constitution in no way guarantees it can be built or says it cannot. I think the city really blew it on this one.

Symbolically, from the muslim perspective, this is a victory shrine. To put it there is provocative. To put it there against overwhelming opposition is hateful, cruel, and aggressive. That is Islam. That is what they do.

I understand the hatred for this building from those more personally affected than me.

I personally do not care much. It is 2 blocks away. Not really going to change much one way or the other. I know what they are up to and I don't like it, but I would pick a battle elsewhere. It might even backfire on the muslims. I think this mousque might generate some more eye-opening news. Funding is already being questioned. Associations. Future associations. Events.... I have a large imagination. I expect this location will get national attention in the future, of what type is anyone's guess as good as mine.

[Tool-Slinger]

This announcement coming from Obama is really scaring me. There is no way for Obama to justify making this stand. It does not help him and it does not help Democrats. So, what is the motive?

How about this? Barack Hussein Obama, born to a Muslim father, raised in his early years as a Muslim with a Muslim step father, claiming to be a Christian by joining an anti-American church, is catering to Muslims worldwide in order to set off a much larger Islamic war worldwide.

Obama has put the American people in a position where economically we are owing more to China and Islamic nations then can be paid back in short order. The American people have been divided by Obama by race, by social stature and by political affiliation. We are a divided nation that owes more then it can produce. We are vulnerable to a civil war in which we could not survive.

Since this latest grandstanding of Obama's support for Islam over a basic courtesy to all Americans can only hurt Obama's image with Americans, including those idiots that bought into Obama's idolatry image, one can only conclude that Obama is joining those who are about to wage full scale war on us.

Might be an interesting week ahead. 21st russia is supposed to load the iranian reactor with the nuke stuff, bolton says that is the dead-line for Israel to attack, due to environmental impact. Harvard said Friday they had sold all stock related to Israel. Sunday NK announces retaliation for war games beginning Monday.

Probably just coincidence.

[geerair]

Outside of for defense, have I advocated the killing of others because they are Muslim? I believe I have been one who has been saying that most Muslims are decent people just trying to get through life as comfortable and preferably content as they can.

Unfortunately, Islamic teachings do advocate the killing of people like me. Whether decent people who happen to be Muslims want to kill me or not, it is very unnerving that their religion teaches that under the conditions that exist, they should kill me.

Allowing Muslim's to build a mosque so close to ground zero will not stop Muslim's from further aggrivating non-Muslims. Nothing will. Islam dictates that Muslims continue to aggrivate circumstances until they are opposed. At that time, Muslims have the excuse/reason to kill those who oppose them. It is a military formula for complete assimilation by force and coercsion. It has existed since Mohammed first developed Islamic commands and it has escalated as well. This is the third major assault on the world by Islam, and it may be the assault that does the most harm to the free world.

You probably shouldn't take Star Trek so seriously.

Afterall it is a sci-fi TV show not reality.

[geerair]

Of course I am right about obama pandering to mulims. That is obvious. But I did not say 'just pandering' as if it were no big deal. This is a large event. Politically speaking.

If anything Obama was pandering to the constitution and that is a major part of his job description.

Obama went against 70% of USA in polling data that he was well aware of. {assuming he is not retarded] Seldom reflected in polling data is a strength/degree issue about the opinion one way or another. I can assure you this is a really hot potato. Filler info. there, but bullet point is that it hurts his own popularity.

That kind of courage is almost non-exsistent in a politician. For that reason alone, he has surpassed any recent president in integrity and courage.

He actually had to switch his position in order to do this, that is highly unusual behavior in itself.

What position did he switch?

[Tool-Slinger]

Obama previously dismissed any position at all, just said it was a local issue. I think that was correct actually. So now he switches positions by saying he supports it.

Is that okay now? Or do I need to type in crayon? Just let me know, buddy.

1- why did he not defend the constitution weeks ago if you are correct?
2- I said before, this is not really a constitutional issue, more of a city zoning-board issue. This is something going on in the city. Constitutional issues generally are more in line with courts, even up to the supreme court.

I hope you understand. But just let me know, because I got a new box with 48 COLORS!!!!

[Gilligan36]

Unfortunately, Islamic teachings do advocate the killing of people like me. Whether decent people who happen to be Muslims want to kill me or not, it is very unnerving that their religion teaches that under the conditions that exist, they should kill me.

You are misrepresenting the teachings of Quran and I, as a Christian, am not going for it. I've read the Quran. The Quran says about the prohibition of murder..."..Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom." (al-An'am 6:151)Now, you can argue what those words mean as much as you want to, but the Old Testament sanctions rising up against enemies of God in brutal fashion.
The Quran further notes about fighting enemies of Allah...
"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves." (al-Baqarah 2:190-194)
Muslims who practice peace and adhere to their own set of righteous ideologues are no more a threat to the world than Christians who do the same.
It's the extremists in any religion who do the damage, and like extremist Christians, radical Islam is no exception.

[Tool-Slinger]

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves." (al-Baqarah 2:190-194)

So then they fly a plane into a building, chop off a reporter's head, bury a woman in sand deep enough to cover her breasts to throw rocks at her until she is dead, Shoot daughter for being with a boy, throw acid in face of woman who doesn't want to be married now, rape infidel woman, then strap on a bomb and look for a good gathering of people shopping.

Gilligan should become an Imam and go straighten these people out about their religion. Obviously they have gotten off track a little.

[glennac]

You are misrepresenting the teachings of Quran and I, as a Christian, am not going for it. I've read the Quran. The Quran says about the prohibition of murder..."..Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom." (al-An'am 6:151)Now, you can argue what those words mean as much as you want to, but the Old Testament sanctions rising up against enemies of God in brutal fashion.
The Quran further notes about fighting enemies of Allah...
"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves." (al-Baqarah 2:190-194)
Muslims who practice peace and adhere to their own set of righteous ideologues are no more a threat to the world than Christians who do the same.
It's the extremists in any religion who do the damage, and like extremist Christians, radical Islam is no exception.

Funny the only religious fanatics who have been killing anyone much less thousands a year for the last 40 years or so have been the Muslims. Thank you, thank you very much.

[geerair]

Obama previously dismissed any position at all, just said it was a local issue. I think that was correct actually

And it is correctly a local issue.

So now he switches positions by saying he supports it.

Obama still maintains it is a local issue.

Where he made his mistake was in assuming that a certain segment of our population knew about or cared for the U.S. Constitution.

Obama's recently remarks served to remind this segment of our population that freedom of religion applies to all.

Thus reaffirming that this issue is the province of local officials.

Is that okay now? Or do I need to type in crayon? Just let me know, buddy.

If you find it easier to type in crayon, then please feel free.

1- why did he not defend the constitution weeks ago if you are correct?

He made the mistake of assuming that all American citizens had at least a rudimentary grasp of civics.

2- I said before, this is not really a constitutional issue, more of a city zoning-board issue. This is something going on in the city.

I agree.

Unfortunately some of our citizenry seem to have spent their in civics class time picking their noses instead of taking notes.

Obama provided what should have been an unnecessary civics lesson.

Constitutional issues generally are more in line with courts, even up to the supreme court.

Constitutional issues are relevent on a local, state, and national venues and cover a myriad of issues.

I hope you understand. But just let me know, because I got a new box with 48 COLORS!!!!

I prefer sharpies actually, but if you are comfortable with crayons then let no man call you childish.

[geerair]

Funny the only religious fanatics who have been killing anyone much less thousands a year for the last 40 years or so have been the Muslims. Thank you, thank you very much.

Hell, Christians wiped out tens of thousands in Iraq alone.

[geerair]

What a poop slinger,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,hey i gotta idea, why dont we take your posts break them down out of context or line by line one by one and type stupid.

Well you have already mastered stupid.

It remains to be seen if your line item parsing can rise above that observed standard.

[Tool-Slinger]

I noticed the whitehouse has produced a statement or transcript, looks like a little backpedal attempt, or clarification. But aides say he still had the strong position, just kept mum about it previously awaiting city decision, so much with the transparency ruse. Just more insanity from the obama administration.

As for the civics issue, he knew, had to know, the polls on the issue weeks ahead. Like my older cousin's magic 8-ball with answers back in the 70s, anyway you shake it it doesn't make much sense.

Combined my observations with yours, perhaps his only mistake here was a pandering attempt gone bad with publicity? Like the bowing stuff? Maybe he just went overboard trying to endear himself to an entity, not understanding the ramifications? I could perhaps go along with that idea.