Is joining a union a good idea?

[shauna779]

My husband has been in commercial HVAC for almost 5 years in Dallas(about to relocate to Houston area). We've been looking at the Pipefitters union website, and it looks like there are a lot of advantages with pay, education, etc. Before he contacts a union representative, I want to know what yall think about unions. Good, bad, whatever, I just want some opinions on them. Thanks!

[ucp]

Originally posted by shauna779
My husband has been in commercial HVAC for almost 5 years in Dallas(about to relocate to Houston area). We've been looking at the Pipefitters union website, and it looks like there are a lot of advantages with pay, education, etc. Before he contacts a union representative, I want to know what yall think about unions. Good, bad, whatever, I just want some opinions on them. Thanks!

Your husband will make good bucks and his career will advance either with a union shop or smart merit shop if he's a sharp installer/technician and managment in either type identify's his value to the buisness and trade.

Frankly, I think union shops offer better quality training/education than most merit shops.


Just my view, non-union here.

[frozensolid]

It is not always easy to find a "good fit" when working in this trade. If you decide to change employers, your benefits stay the same. You won't have to wait ninety or one hundred eighty days to be insured again.

With the union your pay scale will be higher right from the start. If the mechanics are making more the "Cream of the Crop", and the "Chairborne Rangers" are also making more.

I am Union and I think it's better,

[cehs]

I have been hearing about this lady and her research and here are some exerpts...

http://www.stopunionpoliticalabuse.o...yal_text_1.htm

Her home page.

http://www.lindachavez.org/

[mdp]

Cool, another potential long thread about union pros and cons. If you check out the thread called pay scale under the heading of commercial you'll find quite the discussion. My opinion as a non union member is this, if the UA local is a good one (all locals ARE differant) your husband can expect to be given the opportunity to learn as much as he desires. The more he learns the more valuable he becomes and depending on the union contract the more money he can make. Non union side, if he studies hard constantly and takes any opportunity presented to attend schools and seminars so as to expand his knowledge he'll be able to command top wages for his efforts. Bottom line is still the same, if you're good you'll always have a job and get paid well. Being union has the advantage of a managed retirement program versus managing your own, a personal choice if there ever was one.
Myself, I've never worked union due to the nonexistance of a union in the region that I started in, if there had been one I might have joined. As it stands now I don't regret being non union. I make more than my union counterparts and have a comparable benefit package. There is a shortage of qualified knowledgable HVAC technicians and union or not if he is good and continues to expand his abilities he'll make a good living.

[DeltaT]

Coming from a strong East Coast Union background I use to always believe to each their own. But recently I have had my eyes open to a number of things about how union management, in general, operate. Briefly:

Over the past many years I have never had a pleasant experience with union job policies. I have had no problems with the individual union workers on the job. They want to work hard and earn a living just like anyone else.

I have had a number of contractors tell me how their work had been sabotaged by union workers after they left the job. Today I had a customer who use to sell beer tell me the same thing about beer displays in grocery stores she would put up. The union workers use to knock down her displays after she left. This was in the 80's she said.

Another non-union control contractor would have his control lines cut after he left the job.

A waiterest friend of mine was being harrassed by her own union for more money in their union dues. For 3 years she presented her union with all their invoices showing that she had, in fact, paid her required union dues for all those 3 years. So they decided to sue her. She turned them in to the Federal Labor Board which is now investigating this union and they found out this has been a policy of intimidation with many waiters and waiterises over a long period. What a shame. So now they are trying to nogotiate with her to get rid of the labor board. She says some of the union management are now headed to jail. And she is very happy.

I'm working at a University now trouble shooting some new systems. Another HVAC tech told me how a portion of his paycheck goes towards a union fund that is directed towards putting non-union contractors out of business.

Same job but dry wall installed told me that this job was union because his company purposely unbid this job to keep non-union companies from work. Then the union has a fund dedicated to paying his company the difference. Seems this would be some sort of price fixing to me.

We recently had some laws passed in out state and another state which has allowed the union to control our industry. This has caused a few small independent contractors to go out of business all ready. Probably more to come.

And I could go on. But if you are willing to go to work for an organization that acts this way so you can, supposily get a few dollars more, then more power to you. I could not sleep knowing I am working for such a organization. But this type of union management seems to address the greed in all of us and those that are looking out for only themselves seem to have found what they are looking for.

Ironically, on the job, the union workers out in the field are some pretty smart and well trained guys and gals.

[frozensolid]

Love the wirenuts, but I have to disagree with your viewpoint on the union.

Is it greed to want your family to have good health care?

Is greed to want to earn good wages to support that family?

Is it greed to want a secure retirement?

I see more greed in business than in the union.

[DeltaT]

Originally posted by frozensolid
Love the wirenuts, but I have to disagree with your viewpoint on the union.

Is it greed to want your family to have good health care?

Is greed to want to earn good wages to support that family?

Is it greed to want a secure retirement?

I see more greed in business than in the union.

I hope you disagree with my viewpoint from time to time. Otherwise this sure would be a boring board. And we wouldn't learn anything.

But these are not viewpoints or opnions. These are material facts which I find deplorable in any form...union or non-union.

Each and everyone of us want the same things you listed above...but at the cost of others? There must be a balance and I see the union is out of balance when it comes to good business and ethics. And the same can be said for non union management. Just look at Emron as one example. It's not correct is either arena.

But it is actively promoted in the unions, in general -- and I am sure there are individual unions which are top notch and an exception, against non-union AND union companies and employees.

I honesly think, and not to hold this against you or any others, that there is a philosy that if you are doing well and you management is doing some bad things...union or non-union, just look the other way.

BTW, Mrs. WireNut is about to trample on Diceman.

[ucp]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DeltaT

I hope you disagree with my viewpoint from time to time. Otherwise this sure would be a boring board. And we wouldn't learn anything.

But these are not viewpoints or opnions. These are material facts which I find deplorable in any form...union or non-union.

Each and everyone of us want the same things you listed above...but at the cost of others? There must be a balance and I see the union is out of balance when it comes to good business and ethics. And the same can be said for non union management. Just look at Emron as one example. It's not correct is either arena.

But it is actively promoted in the unions, in general -- and I am sure there are individual unions which are top notch and an exception, against non-union AND union companies and employees.

I honesly think, and not to hold this against you or any others, that there is a philosy that if you are doing well and you management is doing some bad things...union or non-union, just look the other way.

BTW, Mrs. WireNut is about to trample on Diceman.

Your right about turning the other cheek if your doing well. We all do this.

As Americans we all do a lot of that at the cost of others, to keep the standard of living here the best in the world.

What poor underpaid soul in another country mined the ore we use here, or made my socks in a sweatshop in some other country etc...The list goes on and on.

I love it in this country, and we generally dont even think about the price that other peoples pay for our standard of living do we?

Unions just seem kind of redundant, were all members of a big one.



America Local 1

[Dowadudda]

DELTA T,

Bull crap. The waitress, being "forced". Bull$hit. She could elect to opt out and go work non union. But she'll stay, make good money, yet complain to you so your veiw is further skewered. You have no clue how her life is set up. So don't make an opinion of it. For that matter. We should only be speaking about our trade union, the United Alliance. HVAC/R Service Locals across this country. And what your saying about lines being cut, and all that. Sabotage is prosecuteable. Union service men and contractors do not employ thugery to get ahead. Thats the whole point. They don't have to. You must think that if your on a jobsite and you are non union that the union fat cats are sitting in there office concentrating on how to make your daY MISERABLE. No, thats just the opposite. They sit and try to figure out how to beat you with skills, talent, training, bigger money jobs. This sabotage, I am sick of hearing it because it is untrue of our union. It doesn't happen here, and I live in the strongest union area in the world. The UAW or the Teamsters might pull that crap but not the UA.

I don't care what your polotics are, or your skill level. The Union is for both the technician and his contractor. You guys should really go find out the real truth before you lay it out here that you know what your talking about.

[cehs]

What I don't agree with about unions is that the try to force workers into the union.
If a worker wants to be/stay nonunion, then the union should not harrass the dickens out of the person to join.
Sometimes it gets worse than that and injuries occur.

About the greed thing, if unions want good working conditions ALL benifit. If unions want benifits ALL in that location benifit. If unions want good pay ONLY the union workers benifit. If unions realy want good pay why don't they want good pay for ALL?

just my 2 cents.

[ucp]

Originally posted by Dowadudda
DELTA T,

We should only be speaking about our trade union, the United Alliance.

This sabotage, I am sick of hearing it because it is untrue of our union. It doesn't happen here, and I live in the strongest union area in the world. The UAW or the Teamsters might pull that crap but not the UA.

This is a good point, we should only be chatting about this Trade Union and not unions in general here.
UA cannot be compared to UAW or Teamsters.

I am non-union for 15 plus years, never had a problem with the union fellows on same job. In fact some were quite helpful and I would help them back if I could.

I just dont see the need for a union in this field if your sharp. What would be the benefit of being in union besides better educational benefits if your a great fitter/technician/sheetmetal guy?

[alex_in_fl]

Interesting reading this thread. Glad to see civil discourse (for the most part). First let me tell a short story before you read my comments.

I have two uncles (now retired) that worked union. Both made good money and have good retirements. Both were/are absolutely top workers. Back while rebuilding my father's store they helped out for free. A non union crew also worked the job. One day at 9:45 AM, Uncle C said to Uncle P, "Let's get a cup of coffee." They walked across the street, got coffee, came back and at 10:00 AM on the button grabbed tools and when to work. One nonunion guys goes "hmmph, union." His buddy said "yep." Then added "But you watch them. I have. You think you can work do what they do?" End of the day I overheard the first guy say "Damn! Those boys work!"

Union has pros and cons. Here are my thoughts:

Unions have more rules. You pay dues (which frequently become contributions for democrats), and wages and benefits are pretty standardized. Also, you have two bosses, the union steward and the contractor. The worst thing about unions (besides blindly supporting even the worse democrats) is that senority is far more important than ability. You need to keep that in mind.

If your husband is a top hand, a real go getter and can sell working for salary plus a share of profits then non union is best. If security, knowing exactly where you stand in the pecking order is more important then go union.

If husband's skills are weak or below average definitely go union. If they are slightly below average to just above average go union. Why? Because in a union, senority outways ability/skill. Therefore he makes more money. Plus he likely has better access to training to improve his skills.

If your husband's skills are slightly above to far above average then go non union and work out a deal to get hourly or salary plus share of profits.

Good luck!

Alex.

[Dowadudda]

Okay,

Now follow me here. Were asking ourselves do we need the Union. The UA for instance. Were talking about neccesity.

Remember one thing. This is a voluntary Union. For contractor. For mechanic. For Pipefitter. No one says you must be union. But why do contractors want to be union? Why do technicians? You don't get beat to hell if you opt out. Most Union guys will simply shrug you off and say "it's your loss".

To be welcomed you got to have some game. It's not a union really especially so if your comparing the UA to something like the UAW or Teamsters. No one protects your job. Your job is as safe as anyone else in the non union sector. There is no greivance process or any of that crap. You screw up or your a moron. Your gone. If you got game, and you are a decent person, you'll have work for yourself the rest of your life.

So why? It's a coop. Contractors can pay one flat fee and their employees are insured well, paid well, trained well, retirement for them is provided for their employee that they otherwize couldn't come close to affording. If the economy sags as we all have recently experienced, and you are laid off, you get to collect unemployment and SUB. Supplemental Unemployment benefit. It basically comes close to what your were making working per week. It runs out of course but better than any non union mechanic would receive while laid off. And why is it there? Because the mechanics and the contractors agreed together that that is what they want to do with some of that flat fee the contractor pays.

And very very very important to point out. A contractor is union because he chooses to be. He wants it. He likes the idea and embraces the idea. He is not against his employees. There is no conflict. You can organize a shop from an unwilling OWNER, but the union don't want them. They do try on some places, but for the most part they want people that want to be union. Again, not the Teamsters or UAW or whatever. Were talking about the UA, our trade union.

It's frowned upon to do side work, and in fact if caught your going to lose a lot. We all need to frown on side work as it hurts us collectively.

For all those same reasons, pay, trining, retirment, ect ect ect, it is so much better for the techncian.

You the contractor and you the techician have an agreement. He expects you to come to work with your best game, se he can make money by charging a lot for your expertness, alternatively you expect the compensation and tools and training to be at your best game.

All of this is more benficial and affordable for all involved.

These conjured up conspiracies otherwise said on here might be true in other non trade related unions but for our union it is pure flat out Bull $hit. You want to talk, get the facts.

[Dowadudda]

Oh Pleeeeeeze.

If you are under skilled go union. Who told you that?

Let me challenge any of you non union super gurus to go in and try to simply get an interveiw and be tested to what journey level people in the union have had to pass. It's very difficult. And the new 5 year apprenticeships is the very best and top notch there is for this trade.

If that attitude you display with those comments about go union if your underskilled or this security crap, it's pure crap.

The "UA" union only survives and is successful by you the mechanic and you the contractor that operate together at a top level. Pure and Simple.. If not, if they together don't have that, they could not make any money and afford to belong..

[mdp]

Aahhh Dowadudda my arch nemesis we meet again on the field of union versus not. I thought maybe we had cleared this up on a previous thread. Now children listen up, I'm non union, never worked it, never will, too old to start. Union or non it's like religion, it's a personal choice, deal with it there's lots of work and money to go around. The UA for the most part provides the individual a damned good education to start and continue in this trade. Slacker in the midst, an employer CAN get rid of him/her. Being union is no gaurantee of a job! Yes I have dismissed union employees that can't make the grade. The union will not protect a substandard employee, FACT! The union (in a good local) will however give every employee lots of opportunities to better him/herself in the trade. No the UA is not the teamsters and UAW of old. Union members that are hard line and beleive that you must be union or you're scum, grow up this is America a land of free choice and we all have the right to make our own choices. We should all respect each others choice of trades and affiliations. I have the utmost respect for any tradesman that desires to to be the best that he/she can be union or not. Saying that all unions are corrupt based on a possible problem with one union local is like saying that all non union people are the best there are because you as an individual take pride in your work, neither statement is true in the big picture. Oh by the way, last I knew, no union goons came and beat up any of my employees for not voting the union line.

[frozensolid]

I believe everyone should have fair wages. It's not my fault if all the others settle for less. Just because I have the courage to stand up for what I believe, does not make me a bad person. I think those who are weak of character are responsible for their own problems. Most of them would sell each other out for fifty cents an hour.

I have worked shops with union and non-union workers. They both worked the same scale. The union was required by law to defend all, even the non-union workers, Who paid no dues. Unions are for everyone, but not everyone is for the union.

The violent history of unions began when the companies started shooting striking workers. You would think it was the other way around, the way it plays in the media. If you don’t like unions that is your right, but don’t cry to me about how unions step on others.

[DeltaT]

Wow, Dow. I had no idea you had that strong of union blood running through you. I have a feeling that if I showed you pictures of proof of what this control contractor told me about the local union guys ruining his work after he left you still would not believe it.

Or if you sat down face to face with this customer I had yesterday and heard her rather long story (I could not tell you all of what she said because it is too long)you would not believe her either. I won't see her again until August when she moves back up here permanently, but I will ask her for proof or copies of the threateining letters she got from the local union. She said all this took place back in the 80's.

And this is not a union bashing threat in my case. As I have stated before, I have always had a policy of to each his/her own.

As for the waiteress, yes she had to join the union if she was working for this large restaurant chain/hotel. Washington State is not a right to work state so if the union is on site, all the employees must be union. There is no choice. And she did the catering so this was and is her life blood through this large hotel chain in her rather small town north of Seattle.

But I have a feeling you would not believe her either. Next time I see her I will ask her for details as to her case. It should be public information I would think and you can read it for yourself.

As for bully techniques, just look at the Omni Duct letter for proof which was recently addressed in the latest News addition.

Now having said all that, the same can be found in non-union actions by people from all over. Life it life. But don't hand me this the union is innocient theme. It's below you.

Union's are necessary as a limit to corporate greed and management based on history. And so is non-union workers.

But that still does not address that here, in this state, and that has been verified by a few union and non union memeber of this very board in writing, that this union here and their unions wherever they are located actively with-hold their hard eared money to go into a fund to actively put non-union contractors out of business (as they have described it to me) and to also use those funds to underbid jobs to keep non union companies from getting jobs too.

We all agree that our field needs new and better trained technicians. And we all pretty much agree that we love this industry. So how can this be going on?

My point, and only point, is that there is an organization in this country, call it what you may, that actively takes hard earned money from its members with their full knowledge, apparently, that is going towards putting any other forms of business out of business that does not agree with them or follow them.

I don't know how anyone looking at this system could not call that a crime of hate. If the ACCA, for instance, started a fund from their memebership to actively put out of business anyone in the Detroit area that did refrigeration work that was not a memeber of ACCA, you would find that repulsive, wouldn't you?

[Dowadudda]

I have said all I can, as best I can, as clear as I can and lastly as good of me as I can. Your opinion and your veiw point is yours and mine is mine. We can respect that of each other.

The only thing I can say is that I truly beleive in what I have said on this board the last few weeks strongly, for myself, for fellow contractors and most important for every mechanic who wants to acheive and earn a good living.

I have known both sides as a mechanic and both sides as a contractor. In my mind, the union and what it offers me to make money is far better for me, but were all different I guess. I wish I could convince some more, and offer more of my perspective so you won't have to do it the hard way in either direction but I guess I have said all that I could.

[DeltaT]

Dow
I'm talking about principals here and not the union. The union happens to be the subject of this post because they are the ones doing this as I have been informed of.

"I don't know how anyone looking at this system could not call that a crime of hate. If the ACCA, for instance, started a fund from their memebership to actively put out of business anyone in the Detroit area that did refrigeration work that was not a memeber of ACCA, you would find that repulsive, wouldn't you?"

Seems to me you are side stepping your answer as to whether you find this activity by any form acceptable. But I also understand that for you to address this issue would cause you to have to look at the total picture of the true picture of your cost to this memebership.