Which option for new systems - Houston TX

[muggy]

I'm replacing two systems in my 16 yr old house in in Houston. Existing systems are 3.5 tons upstairs, and 3 tons downstairs, with furnaces installed vertically (upflow) in an unconditioned attic. Subjectively, size of existing systems seems OK... I've had adequate cooling past summers, but have fairly long recovery times, say 1.5-2hrs, if I setback the stat to 80F in the summer. I've had several contractors look at the house and offer proposals, and have narrowed down to the following three systems:

OPTION 1 (Price = 100): Trane XL15i condensers (3.5t upstairs, 3t downstairs), XV80 VS furnaces, Aprilaire 2210/2410 media filters, Honeywell IAQ stats.
Using Trane A-coils. I don't have the coil numbers, but downstairs system will qualify for the $1500 tax credit (upstairs doesn't, so coil is chosen for better latent capacity, rather than SEER/EER).
Warranty is 10yrs parts and labor, 20yrs on the heat exchanger.

OPTION 2 (Price = 92): Carrier 24APA7 2-stage condensers (4t upstairs, 3t downstairs), 58CVA090 VS furnaces, Carrier EZ-Flex media filters, Infinity controls.
Using Carrier CSP slab coils, and again, the downstairs system qualifies for the credit, upstairs doesn't.
This contractor plans to install both furnaces horizontally, which I like (the other contractors claim there's too little space to go horizontal, but I think there's plenty... they just don't want to be bothered with it.)
Warranty is 2yrs parts and labor, plus 10yrs parts on condenser, furnace, and coil, 20yrs on heat exchanger.

OPTION 3 (Price = 82): Amana ASXC16 2-stage condensers (4t upstairs, 3t downstairs), AMVC80 VS furnaces, Lennox HC-10 media filters, new Amana communicating stat/system with humidity control.
Coils are Aspen CB60 upstairs and CB48 downstairs. Both systems currently qualify for credit, but I think we would switch upstairs to a lower-efficiency/higher latent capacity coil if we go with this contractor.
Warranty is 10yrs parts and labor, plus lifetime on the compressor and heat exchanger.

Two contractors have already done a Manual J, and both came up with 3.5tons required upstairs, and 3tons required downstairs (same as existing). The third contractor will do the heat load before we finalize the system. I believe all three contractors will do a quality installation job. Also note that I'm very concerned about humidity control, and it's likely I'll also install a whole house dehumidifier (I tend to be uncomfortable at 73F and 50% RH, so would like to target between 40-45% RH).

So, which of these systems would you choose? My impression is that the Carrier is the best system here, but the price on the Amana is hard to overlook. I've heard the arguments about Goodman & Amana ("they're junk" and "no, they've gotten better"), but am not sure what to believe. The 10yr P&L warranty goes a long way to putting quality concerns to rest though.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[dash]

You could get a price on a two stage Carrier,without Infiny control orperformance Series that would be closer to you lowest price and more similar in benefits and features.

Only problem with 10 year Parts and labor is , what labor rate will they be paying down the road,and will the best companies be able to work for that rate? Applies to all.

[muggy]

Thanks Dash.

Contractor #2 actually did give me a quote for Carrier 24AAC Comfort Series single-stage condensers plus the same two-stage VS furnace as above, and CSP slab coils (still with Infinity controls). The price was only a few hundred $$ less than Option 2 above, so I decided to strike this particular "step down" in the Carrier line off my list.

Maybe this was the wrong "step down" to be looking at though? Is there a different Carrier series that would still include a VS furnace, capable of slowing the blower for humidity removal, that I should ask my Carrier guy about?

Good point about the 10yr labor warranty. Should I be worried that 10yrs from now I won't be able to find anybody really good to repair an Amana system at the Goodman-specified labor rate?

Thanks!

[muggy]

...wo stage Carrier,without Infiny control orperformance Series that would be closer to you lowest price and more similar in benefits and features...

Dash, I think I missed your more important point the first time around. You're suggesting that the Carrier Option has superior performance / benefits / features when compared with the Amana Option?

Of course the Amana guy (not me) would argue otherwise... and say that the Amana 2-stage condenser, VS furnace & communicating controls will perform roughly the same as the Carrier Performance/Infinity system.

So what part of the story is he missing, or leaving out? Since the mechanical components in Option 2 and Option 3 seem roughly equal, at least on the surface, is the difference something in the controls that I'm not picking up on?

[classical]

Those comfort ranges are pretty low and if you need to keep it 73 degrees the systems are oversized.

If your home is 16 years old you have huge opportunity to improve the envelope of the house and drastically lower the equipment size which again will make the greatest impact on comfort and efficiency.

Is either of the companies offering written guaranteed energy savings?

A properly sized system and sealed home will not need supplemental dehumidification.

[muggy]

Those comfort ranges are pretty low and if you need to keep it 73 degrees the systems are oversized.

Thanks for the feedback Classical. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "those comfort ranges are pretty low". Is that to say "you're not going to be comfortable with any of these systems", or did you mean something else?

Also, do you mean that the systems are likely to be oversized today, with the house as-is (no attention to envelope, sealing, etc), or that they're gonna be oversized after appropriate sealing to reduce infiltration?

Thanks!

OH.. and no, nobody is offering me any type of energy savings guarantee... yet : )

[dash]

Dash, I think I missed your more important point the first time around. You're suggesting that the Carrier Option has superior performance / benefits / features when compared with the Amana Option?

Of course the Amana guy (not me) would argue otherwise... and say that the Amana 2-stage condenser, VS furnace & communicating controls will perform roughly the same as the Carrier Performance/Infinity system.

So what part of the story is he missing, or leaving out? Since the mechanical components in Option 2 and Option 3 seem roughly equal, at least on the surface, is the difference something in the controls that I'm not picking up on?

The Infinity has numerous patents, it's gets input from the indoor and outdoor temp sensors, and makes decisions and controls the cfms and staging based on it's built in algorithms, not just time in a certain mode,cfm or stage.

I dout others can be "equal" due to the patents.

The step down is VS ,but controled by Carrier's Thermidistat, similar to other brands,and a Comfort Series Two Stage outdoor unit.

It uses the 2.5 version of the ECM VS motor(others may be using it now,I'd have to check).

[classical]

The Infinity has numerous patents, it's gets input from the indoor and outdoor temp sensors, and makes decisions and controls the cfms and staging based on it's built in algorithms, not just time in a certain mode,cfm or stage.

I dout others can be "equal" due to the patents.

The step down is VS ,but controled by Carrier's Thermidistat, similar to other brands,and a Comfort Series Two Stage outdoor unit.

It uses the 2.5 version of the ECM VS motor(others may be using it now,I'd have to check).

I thought the Infinity/Evolution was using the 3.0 ECM now.

[classical]

Thanks for the feedback Classical. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "those comfort ranges are pretty low". Is that to say "you're not going to be comfortable with any of these systems", or did you mean something else?

I mean a properly sized designed and installed should make you comfortable closer to 78 to 80 degrees.

Also, do you mean that the systems are likely to be oversized today, with the house as-is (no attention to envelope, sealing, etc), or that they're gonna be oversized after appropriate sealing to reduce infiltration?

I mean that most systems in Houston are 20% to 60% oversized to begin with but due to very poor installation and design procedures they are performing at reduced capacities and efficiencies. And yes they will be even more so if you improve the envelope reducing infiltration and exfilltration.

Thanks!

OH.. and no, nobody is offering me any type of energy savings guarantee... yet : )

Look into BPI certified contractors and you will find your guarantees!

[dash]

I thought the Infinity/Evolution was using the 3.0 ECM now.

Yep,getting old,my bad. Thanks

[muggy]

Thanks Dash and Classical for the feedback. Al, I may give you a shout to discuss your approach a little further. As far as equipment selection goes, I'm still wondering... what is there, good or bad, that I should know about the various Options I've been given?

Or...

Is there any reason to consider the Trane XL15i with VS furnace over the (less expensive) Carrier Performance 2-stage condenser + Infinity furnace?

Advantages or disadvantages to going with horizontal furnace and slab coils, vs the vertical upflow configuration that I have now?

Can anyone comment on build quality of the higher-end Amana equipment (ASXC16 and AMVC80) compared with the other two?

Likewise, has anyone got any experience with the new Goodman/Amana communicating systems... are they as smart, and do they work as well as other manufacturers?

[teddy bear]

Those comfort ranges are pretty low and if you need to keep it 73 degrees the systems are oversized.

If your home is 16 years old you have huge opportunity to improve the envelope of the house and drastically lower the equipment size which again will make the greatest impact on comfort and efficiency.

Is either of the companies offering written guaranteed energy savings?

A properly sized system and sealed home will not need supplemental dehumidification.

I hate to get technical but, your statement about maintaining 50% RH with current high tech a/c need clarification. I sat through the presentation from several leading a/c mfgrs. enigineers state that reheat or supplemental dehumidification is required to maintain 50%RH during the varible weather conditions in all green grass climates.
Maybe you could explain how any moderately air tight home is maintained at 73^F <50%RH, 60 grains, 53^F dew point during wet, cool weather with any of the a/c list in this post without supplimental dehumidification.
Consider the home has 2-4 breathing, active occupants and there is minimal amount of fresh air infiltrating or active fresh air ventilation (75 cfm) with 72^F, 90%RH, 105 grains, 70^F dew point outdoor conditions. This is a common overnight or rainy day condition. If there is any wind involved the fresh air infiltration will much higher which increases the latent cooling load without any increase in sensible cooling load.

The moisture from 3 occupants is 1 lb./hr. or 7000 gr./hr. The moisture from the minimal 75 cfm infiltration/ventilation is 2 lb./hr or 14,000 gr./hr. This is a +3,000 btus/hr. latent load with any significant sensible load. Keep in mind that it takes 30 minutes to load an a/c coil and start moisture removal. Also, when the a/c cycles off the moisture on the cooling coil evaporates back into the home. I have tested many homes with the best of a/c systems and have yet to find <50%RH with these outdoor conditions+ occupants unless reheat or supplemental dehumidification is used.

During times of no cooling load, moisture content of the indoor air will be determined by the infiltrating outdoor air moist + the moisture from the occupants. 1 lb of moisture raises 1,000 sqft. living space 10%. The air in an adequately ventilated home will have a moisture level slightly above the outdoor levels. The a/c trade should be part of the indoor quality providers.
I look forward to discussion. Regards TB

[muggy]

Thanks Teddy for the factual feedback. I know that some will disagree with my choice, but let me just say right now that we will have a whole house dehumidifier installed. Chalk it up to a personal/body-type problem... for about 10 months out of the year, if I'm moving, I'm sweating! So a whole house dehumidifier certainly isn't the right choice for everybody, but I think it's the right choice for me.

SO, to focus on the decisions I haven't made yet...

Anybody have any first hand experience (not hearsay, or "everything Goodman is cr*p") with the Amana ASXC16 and AMVC80, or their non-communicating ASX16 and AMV80 predecessors, that they can share?

Build quality? Noisy or quiet? Known problems, advantages or disadvantages? Opinions on Comfortnet controls?

How about the Carrier Performance condenser + Infinity furnace? I accept that the Infinity controls are completely proven, and probably smarter / more effective than competitors. But how about other aspects... again, Build quality? Known problems, advantages or disadvantages?

Thanks in advance!

[classical]

TB I do not disagree with anything you said however; in Houston in my home and many homes I have setup your scenario is less than 20 days a year. For that reason, I have found, for most people the need for supplemental dehumidification is an expensive option that they are unwilling to pay for. Additionally sealing a home significantly to a recommended MVR reduces infiltration and thus unintended humidity.

Todd all systems have their strong points and their weak points, some have better technology by a slight margin but if the installing contractor does not practice due diligence in their design and installation practices all the technology in the world cannot make it function properly.
Amana and Goodman are quality products, Carrier is a quality product with some outstanding technology and Trane is also, I just am not a Trane fan.
As always it is the contractor that makes the determining factor not the brand.

Todd what I usually recommend is see how your home work with the new equipment and if does not meet expectations then add supplemental deum.

[dan sw fl]

I'm replacing two systems in my 16 yr old house in in Houston. Existing systems are 3.5 tons upstairs, and 3 tons downstairs, with furnaces installed vertically (upflow) in an unconditioned attic. Subjectively, size of existing systems seems OK... I've had adequate cooling past summers, but have fairly long recovery times, say 1.5-2hrs, if I setback the stat to 80F in the summer. I've had several contractors look at the house and offer proposals, and have narrowed down to the following three systems:

Warranty is 2yrs parts and labor, plus 10yrs parts on condenser, furnace, and coil, 20yrs on heat exchanger.

OPTION 3 (Price = 82):
Both systems currently qualify for credit, but I think we would switch upstairs to a lower-efficiency/higher latent capacity coil if we go with this contractor.

Warranty is 10yrs parts and labor, plus lifetime on the compressor and heat exchanger.[/INDENT]

[/B] My impression is that the Carrier is the best system here, but the price on the Amana is hard to overlook.

The 10yr P&L warranty goes a long way to putting quality concerns to rest though.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

I wonder how many Warranty claims will actually be honored in the next ten years.

How many insurance companies will still be in existence?

[fixed right]

Thanks Dash and Classical for the feedback. Al, I may give you a shout to discuss your approach a little further. As far as equipment selection goes, I'm still wondering... what is there, good or bad, that I should know about the various Options I've been given?

Or...

Is there any reason to consider the Trane XL15i with VS furnace over the (less expensive) Carrier Performance 2-stage condenser + Infinity furnace?

Advantages or disadvantages to going with horizontal furnace and slab coils, vs the vertical upflow configuration that I have now?

Can anyone comment on build quality of the higher-end Amana equipment (ASXC16 and AMVC80) compared with the other two?

Likewise, has anyone got any experience with the new Goodman/Amana communicating systems... are they as smart, and do they work as well as other manufacturers?

I prefer upflow configuration myself, and i'm sure most techs will say the same thing. IMO, why go to the trouble of altering your current setup?

I can comment on the Amana build quality & reliability. I'm an Amana dealer and have been for over 12 years. All of our systems come with extended warranties and utility savings guarantees as well. I guess i better knock on wood here, but i have YET to replace or repair a major component on OUR Amana products & IMO, they are top notch. But it really surprises me the Amana guy is cheaper than the others. The Amana line is usually higher priced than most. At least for me here in Utah it is.
On the model #'s you have listed.........the a/c unit comes with a LT unit replacement if the compressor fails. The heat exchanger comes with a LTUR if it fails. So, if these components fail in 25 years you will get a whole new furnace/ac unit with a new warranty. No other manufacturer that i know of can even come close to these warranties. So i would have to say, compared to the others.....Amana has THEE best warranty. Other than that, i can't comment further on the brand comparison. To be honest though, brand should only affect your decision by 20% one way or the other. The contractor you choose to use should be your most important decision.

We're just learning more about the communicating system, so as of right now i don't have much for you on it. I do know however, they are super smart and the thermostat sets up everything for the installers. Plus, they're easier and less expensive to set up in the beginning.

[Mr Bill]

fixed right, in my opinion there is not much to haggle about anymore other than warranty. All your systems are so close in components now, the actual case/coil is about the only thing the mfg. makes anymore. This is why the install is about the only thing we can focus on now days to compete, sad thing is, we here will all be dead before the majority of the public will be ever be educated enough to buy installation and not product. The majority of the public, just wants cool air in the summer and heat in the winter, not many expect to have the "perfect" a/c and heating system, and until expectations
grow in the eyes of our customers there will always be good installs and bad ones, sad but true.

[seatonheating]

Why any of these guys sell a certain brand and not themselves is beyond me.

[teddy bear]

TB I do not disagree with anything you said however; in Houston in my home and many homes I have setup your scenario is less than 20 days a year. For that reason, I have found, for most people the need for supplemental dehumidification is an expensive option that they are unwilling to pay for. Additionally sealing a home significantly to a recommended MVR reduces infiltration and thus unintended humidity.
.

I agree with the comment about "they are unwilling to pay for".
The number of days that you need supplemental dehumidification has to do with the amount of fresh air that is getting into the home. If you have an air change in 5-6 hours when occupied, you have many more days that you need supplemental dehumidification. During a wet year with everyday occupancy/75 cfm fresh air, most green grass climates have +100 days where the a/c will not provide <50%RH with out supplemental dehumidification. Codes are being made stronger because of the IAQ problems that are forthcoming as home are made tighter. Most of the a/c trade is not been making the effort to demonstrate the benefits of fresh air ventilation and supplemental dehumidification.
Hang in there, homeowners are willing to invest for better indoor air quality. Unfortunately, they think IAQ is good air filter and a VS fan. Whole ever gave them that idea? Yes a good air filter, a fresh air change in 5-6 hours, and <50%RH is real IAQ and ideal comfort. I am in my second year of real IAQ and comfort. I added fresh air to my dehumidifier home and will never go back.
Regards TB

[teddy bear]

TB I do not disagree with anything you said however; in Houston in my home and many homes I have setup your scenario is less than 20 days a year. For that reason, I have found, for most people the need for supplemental dehumidification is an expensive option that they are unwilling to pay for. Additionally sealing a home significantly to a recommended MVR reduces infiltration and thus unintended humidity.
.

Here is more information that supports your comments about the need for air tightening post from Posters in TX.
This is Wonderground Weathers windy day in TX without much cooling load. You might call it cool damp windy weather. I attempt to estimate the fresh air infiltration on air tight .2 ach 2,500 sqft. home verses a typical .4 ACH home. Blower doors fresh air calcs. software uses 7 mph wind as an average. Also the average winter temp is used to estimate the stack effect. During spring weather, the equal inside/outside temps have no effect on the stack pressure. A 15 mph wind is roughly equal to the winter stack effec and 7 mph wind effect.
Clearly, on a windy day even an air tight home gets plenty of fresh air. A typical .4 ach home is unbelievable with more than 300 cfm of air leakage.
This makes the point that homes in windy areas need tobe a minimum .2 ach. Don't stop encouraging people to tighten up their homes.

Even more proof, homes need supplemental dehumidification during this wet cool weather to keep them dry.

Later I will show the same homes in calm weather that still need mechanical fresh air ventilation.

Regards TB