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Thread: silver solder

  1. #1

    Confused



    I am a refrigeration 'newbie' and am puzzled about
    the use of silver solder and Stay-Silv Flux. I keep asking
    why isn't 95-5 with -say- Oatey No 95 lead free Tinning
    Flux used ? My take is that 95-5 has a greater tensile
    strength of 5900 psi as against Silver solder with 4400
    psi.

    Another thing that has struck my mind is : can the
    lead free tinning flux be used with silver solder ?
    Thanks for any imput.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Earth
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    4,879
    If your a newbie 99.9 percent of the time you will likley be brazing using stay-silv 15. Fiftenn percent siver, four or five percent phosphorus,and the rest copper (35,000 PSI tensile). You wont be using flux.

    Learn what you need to know first. It will help you understand the other things, when they come along.

    Flux is used with higher percentage silver solders, and soft solders. Which flux do you use. Read the bottles the answer is right there.
    A Diamond is just a piece of coal, that made good under pressure!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
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    13,215
    95-5 cracks. It was used extensively in days gone by, as was 50-50.

    Neither of these, and IMO, even Staybrite #8 have no place in refrigeration service, except for condensate drains. Others here disagree with me on this, but too effin' bad. I've seen LOTS of soft solder joints leak over the years, and carry only water safe soft solder, which is silver bearing, too, BTW, for chilled water lines, etc.

    On refrigeration, nearly ALL of my commercial accounts are very specific in the specifications ( ) that only 15% silver solder (Braze rod...) be used on copper to copper joints, and either 45% wire with Staysilv flux, or the self-fluxing 56% (Orange) rods be used to join the dissimilars.

    I have NEVER, EVER had a problem using any of those solders for ALL refrigerant piping/valve applications in commercial refrigeration.

    Oatey 95 tinning flux, BTW, is harmful to the system, and reacts with refrigerant oil. The self-fluxing rods don't have that problem, but staysilv CAN BE BAD for the system, depending on the size. Remember, fluxes is acids.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
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    most of the time in the Philippines
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    At http://www.jwharris.com you'll find charts of what goes with what.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
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    Guayaquil EC
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    Dave, have you tried the 45% rods with the blue flux? That's what I've used for a few years with great success. My supply houses don't stock the orange rods so their hard to come by in these parts.

    I agree on the 95-5 and Stay Brite.

  6. #6
    Originally posted by icemeister
    Dave, have you tried the 45% rods with the blue flux? That's what I've used for a few years with great success. My supply houses don't stock the orange rods so their hard to come by in these parts.

    I agree on the 95-5 and Stay Brite.

    Since I am working in markets and need every tidbit of info I can gleen from the likes of Dave and others here, I will ... at least for the time being .... aquiess to the man from PA.

    Having said that ....

    Good night!




  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Monmouth Junction-NJ-USA
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    When I first broke into this trade I had a boss that was 95/5 only, before Stay-Brite. (In the late 50's) and then i went to work for a real company in the early 60's. Ran across four 15 ton Chrysler Air-Temp units for a church, that were done with 95/5. Had to redo all the joints with 15%. Learned a lot on that job. Like Dave only lead free solder is on my truck for condensate drains.
    If you really know how it works, you have an execellent chance of fixin' er up!

    Tomorrow is promised to no one...

  8. #8
    G'day guys. Looks as though there is a hung jury on the topic. Hoped to have a clear
    verdict to put Mr Solder where he belongs.The posts are very enlightening and I always
    place my mind in a position to learn. Like the quote goes: he who knows not and knows
    that he knows not ..is teachable .teach him. Well! I am that guy ..I'm all ears.

    Look I am not quite a newbie.. I'm a mewbie in the sense that I am reentering after
    an absence of 30 odd years. Back in the early seventies while living in Montreal
    I took a refrigeration correspondence course and went to work with a guy who serviced
    refrigeration units on the little pleasure boats that dot the St Lawrence river.I was
    good at troulble shooting but disliked the brazing aspect... as to get to the units
    one had to wiggle one's way down the hatch and do brazing in the presence of the
    45 gallon drums of gasoline and the attending fumes . I couldn't swim then and can't
    do so now ...and so when it was brazing time I was on deck close to the pier just in
    case ..you know what!

    This attitude of mine made our relationship a little strained and I quit to go into
    construction.As years went by I went into plumbing[bathrooms] and there is where
    my attachment to 95-5 and the Oatey led free tining flux came in. Now an old fart,
    I have seen quite a few kids come straight out of Tech schools and can't troubleshoot
    or even start a hermetic with bare appliance cords. To this end I have decided
    that I'll go to a little non profit trade school in my village....run for school
    drop outs and pass on on what little I know.

    My interest is purely DOMESTIC REFRIGERATORS ..needless to say that much of what
    goes on in my neck of the woods is 95-5 soldering and I may add..with [???] success.
    The Harris silver solder rod used here is stamped Harris 0 and the flux.. Harris
    Stay-Silv white brazing Flux.

    Took note of the quote :Oatey 95 tinning flux, BTW, is harmful to the system, and reacts with refrigerant oil. The self-fluxing rods don't have that problem, but staysilv CAN BE BAD for the system, depending on the size. Remember, fluxes is acids.

    Thanks for the inputs.








  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Ocean Pines, MD
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    6,935

    45%

    Have seen the flux harden well and not be wiped off. These joints actually held, for a while. Most of these joints were OEM, that I can remember.
    95-5 flux is great from eating holes in Emergency drain pans. Have seen many problems years down the road when these pans where call on and had holes corroded through them. I guess it doesn't matter that much because the same systems usually have the 2 drains tied together.
    It doesn't matter what you use if your a slob. (Not jabbing at anyone here).

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Orange County CA
    Posts
    1,084

    rayr

    50s and 60s?

    I'd love to hear your stories.

    I have some markets where some of the old log books were still there from early 60s.
    I would read through them with amazement.


    15% harris all the way

  11. #11
    Since most of your work will be with domestic refrigerators, I would highly recomend using exclusively Harris 45 or 56%. The kind in the little coils.

    It takes some practice to get used to but is well worth the trouble.
    Just make sure after you weld, you remove ALL of the flux so you can clearly view all the way around each and every joint. This is very important.


    I have done more than my share of domestic boxes. That is your best material. Stick with a proven winner.


    If you have access to Dremel tools and bits, they make a couple of tiny burr tools which are great for reaming out the inside of tiny copper tubing.
    I took my two sizes of burr tools and silverbrazed them into a handle, made out of copper tubing. This gives me the ability to debur in very end of small copper.

    I also like those stainless steel fitting brushes for removing corrosion inside copper tubing.


    A lot of appliance shops use air accetylene for their torch of choice.
    However, I prefer the oxy/act for my work. You have a better flame.
    Especially when you combine that torch with one of those new fandangled wrap around torch tips which squirts out THREE needle point flames sourounding the joint.

    OoooooH! OooooooooH! OooooooooH!

    Get yourself a one and a half CFM vacuum pump and a really really good micron gage, do NOT scrimp here!
    Bring in a huge bottle of nitrogen and your all set.

    Save for one more little thing...... make some method of raising those boxes OFF the floor to work on when your doing sealed system repairs!


    If your gonna work on these boxes, there is nothing worse than being down on the floor all day long, uncomfortable, dirty and disorganized.

    Whereas if you are UP in the air with the fridge to where you can access it's sealed system parts, you will be a much happier technician. And so will everyone else around you.


    [Edited by R12rules on 06-05-2004 at 04:42 PM]

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    Originally posted by icemeister
    Dave, have you tried the 45% rods with the blue flux? That's what I've used for a few years with great success. My supply houses don't stock the orange rods so their hard to come by in these parts.

    I agree on the 95-5 and Stay Brite.
    I haven't seen them in years, around here, but they work equally well for the dissimilars.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    Originally posted by carambola
    This attitude of mine made our relationship a little strained and I quit to go into
    construction.As years went by I went into plumbing[bathrooms] and there is where
    my attachment to 95-5 and the Oatey led free tining flux came in.


    Plumbers aren't even allowed to use 95-5 in anything but waste lines here, just an FYI, I don't know about Canada.

    Originally posted by carambola
    Now an old fart,
    I have seen quite a few kids come straight out of Tech schools and can't troubleshoot
    or even start a hermetic with bare appliance cords. To this end I have decided
    that I'll go to a little non profit trade school in my village....run for school
    drop outs and pass on on what little I know.


    You're gonna help the yoots? That's an excellent idea, but bare appliance cords have kinda become obsolete these days. Not to mention there aren't many young guys I'd want holding an energized cable anywhere near me these days.



    Originally posted by carambola
    My interest is purely DOMESTIC REFRIGERATORS ..needless to say that much of what
    goes on in my neck of the woods is 95-5 soldering and I may add..with [???] success.


    It'll work, don't get me wrong. If you've got a decade or two sweating plumbing joints with 95-5, you know what to do and what not to, and presumably not to overflux the thing...

    Originally posted by carambola
    The Harris silver solder rod used here is stamped Harris 0 and the flux.. Harris
    Stay-Silv white brazing Flux.
    Just to clarify, that 0% rod doesn't require fluxing if used on copper to copper joints. I prefer the 15% silver, and that is the only rod of that variety that I'll buy. The cost is considerably higher, but I'd venture to say that a pound of rod (28 sticks of 1/8" flat rod) would do one hell of a lot of domestic refirg compressor replacements. I'm thinking I could do a half dozen with one single rod! (That's like, a dollar, wholesale.)

    Originally posted by carambola
    Took note of the quote :Oatey 95 tinning flux, BTW, is harmful to the system, and reacts with refrigerant oil. The self-fluxing rods don't have that problem, but staysilv CAN BE BAD for the system, depending on the size. Remember, fluxes is acids.
    Again, all fluxes are possible sources of trouble. ESPECIALLY in a small system like a Kenmore. I would definitely want to braze those joints. OTOH, if no nitrogen bleed is done with a brazing temp, you'd do more damage with the carboniztion than with a little too much flux.

    Originally posted by carambola
    Thanks for the inputs.
    Your welcome.

    Good luck with the students.

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