Goodman/Amana coils

[JWB]

I just think the raw materials are of lesser quality in all coils right now. We had a big run on Carrier and Trane coils last year. Now we are also installing G/A and I am sure I'll be back on those. I think the copper for the coils is flimsier. Friday night I condemned another carrier coil, leaking back left. Installed 7/2007. Right in the middle of a building boom.......

[gary_g]

I think that the elevated pressures of r410 and the lack of a HPS is a big factor for the goodman coil failure.

HPS = High Presure Switch ?

Thanx.

[jovusun]

I have seen leakage from probably all the manufacturers in 30 years. You gotta remember how many coils are installed versus leakers. Many coils leak from improper installation. If your evaporator is installed level, water collects in the drain pan, and while it still drains, about 1/2 inch of water still sits in the drain pan. When you consider that the two bottom rows of copper are constantly sitting in water, think of the long term damage it does. You don't need to know rocket science to know that water corrodes copper especially where it comes in contact with the aluminum fins. It has been a problem for years. I always install evaporator coils with a radical tilt so that the water runs off immediately. When you consider the market in Houston is mainly a horizontal installation, quite different than an upflow, then you realize why we also elevate the coil so that the drain can have a radical runoff too. Slime and build-up in the drainline is caused when the water drains too slowly, bacteria grows and you have an active living slime culture growing in the drainline. Every winter in heating mode the water supply is shut off and the slime dies, leaving behind some nice breakfast material. LOL

Actually Trane, Goodman, York and all of their associated brands are going to an all aluminum coil BECAUSE of the chinese drywall situation. People can sit back and argue that the cost of aluminum is cheaper than the copper, but when you factor in the increased cost of manufacturing, the cost as actually higher for the aluminum coils. The leakage problem has been going on for years. I was a Carrier dealer in the early 90's and the problem was there then. I wouldn't say it's a Goodman problem or a Trane problem, it's an industry problem. The engineers are doing what they can to fix the problems of generations. It's a race to see who solves the problem first, because we all know regardless of brand, if it leaks during it's warranty period, we all lose money.

[crmont]

HPS = High Presure Switch ?

Thanx.

yes

[ga-hvac-tech]

I have seen leakage from probably all the manufacturers in 30 years. You gotta remember how many coils are installed versus leakers. Many coils leak from improper installation. If your evaporator is installed level, water collects in the drain pan, and while it still drains, about 1/2 inch of water still sits in the drain pan. When you consider that the two bottom rows of copper are constantly sitting in water, think of the long term damage it does. You don't need to know rocket science to know that water corrodes copper especially where it comes in contact with the aluminum fins. It has been a problem for years. I always install evaporator coils with a radical tilt so that the water runs off immediately. When you consider the market in Houston is mainly a horizontal installation, quite different than an upflow, then you realize why we also elevate the coil so that the drain can have a radical runoff too. Slime and build-up in the drainline is caused when the water drains too slowly, bacteria grows and you have an active living slime culture growing in the drainline. Every winter in heating mode the water supply is shut off and the slime dies, leaving behind some nice breakfast material. LOL

Actually Trane, Goodman, York and all of their associated brands are going to an all aluminum coil BECAUSE of the chinese drywall situation. People can sit back and argue that the cost of aluminum is cheaper than the copper, but when you factor in the increased cost of manufacturing, the cost as actually higher for the aluminum coils. The leakage problem has been going on for years. I was a Carrier dealer in the early 90's and the problem was there then. I wouldn't say it's a Goodman problem or a Trane problem, it's an industry problem. The engineers are doing what they can to fix the problems of generations. It's a race to see who solves the problem first, because we all know regardless of brand, if it leaks during it's warranty period, we all lose money.

I am sure we all remember the all aluminum coils we have taken out with 20 year old systems (GE comes to mind). They seem to never fail...

Funny how the 'new thing' is not always the better thing (copper/aluminum coils).

[jovusun]

[QUOTE=behappy;6415262]I have changed a lot of coils out in houses built before Chinese drywall (change outs). IMHO I think this drywall comment from Goodman is just BS!

What about the comments from Rheem/Ruud, York/Coleman/Luxaire? I have been to dealer meetings on all the brands listed above this year and all of them have the same comment regarding the chinese drywall. I guess all of the engineers are just being lame and collecting a paycheck to sit behind a desk.
The problem is real and a serious one. If you don't service units where chinese drywall was brought in to repair hurricane damage, you probably can't understand what the others of us is going through.

Many manufacturers are now starting to manufacturer a coil that is all aluminum to combat the problem. Dispite the cheaper cost of aluminum over the copper, the production cost is HIGHER to produce the all aluminum coil when you factor in R&D and production line overhauls. It doesn't make sense for them to eat the cost to be competitive in the market unless overall it gives them an advantage in the market, and long term stops the leakage and stops warranty money going out the door in terms of materials and production.

In the mind of the consumer, WARRANTY means free replacement, in the mind of the manufacturer it means a lo$$ for replacement.

[gary_g]

I think that the elevated pressures of r410 and the lack of a HPS is a big factor for the goodman coil failure.

Thank you for answering my question.

Other than saving a few bucks per condesner, why would Goodman not put in a high pressure cut-off switch? They have a low switch, but not a high.

Is this typical for other mfrs lower end models too?

3 years ago, I went with Goodman's R22 heat pump version because of the lower pressures vs 410A (and they use the same evap coil for both 22 and 410).

Take care.

[crmont]

Thank you for answering my question.

Other than saving a few bucks per condesner, why would Goodman not put in a high pressure cut-off switch?

Good question. I think of it as job security. (my job security )

[RyanHughes]

Good question. I think of it as job security. (my job security )

I read in another post that for quite some time Lennox wasn't installing low pressure switches in the HP26 units (R-22)...just an accessory item. I think most premium units built today would come with both; hopefully Goodman joins the crowd. Even the XB13 from Trane says in their product literature that the unit contains both.

[GT Jets]

Just to add to the discussion (maybe), the higher the SEER of the new R410A refrigerant machines means the copper needs to be ultra thin for ideal thermal exchange, if the raw materials are less than perfect, small pinholes are the result.

For this reason most manufacturers are switching to Helium as a leak check medium (smaller on a molecular level)..This will become more and more common and won't go away anytime soon...
I would think a small receiver (or even an oversize liquid line filter drier) can help (by reducing compressor pulsations) but in the long run, this will keep us busy for a very long time..

Maybe this is something to consider when selling a machine of "ultra high efficiency" to a customer...Just a thought.

GT

[behappy]

What about the comments from Rheem/Ruud, York/Coleman/Luxaire? I have been to dealer meetings on all the brands listed above this year and all of them have the same comment regarding the chinese drywall. I guess all of the engineers are just being lame and collecting a paycheck to sit behind a desk.

I have been to some of the same "sales meetings". And the sales types will say anything not to loose dealers.

The problem is real and a serious one. If you don't service units where chinese drywall was brought in to repair hurricane damage, you probably can't understand what the others of us is going through.

You need to pay attention to where a poster is from (IF they put it in their profile .

Many manufacturers are now starting to manufacturer a coil that is all aluminum to combat the problem. Dispite the cheaper cost of aluminum over the copper, the production cost is HIGHER to produce the all aluminum coil when you factor in R&D and production line overhauls. It doesn't make sense for them to eat the cost to be competitive in the market unless overall it gives them an advantage in the market, and long term stops the leakage and stops warranty money going out the door in terms of materials and production.

As long as we don't have a repeat of the Carrier/Bryant disaster!

In the mind of the consumer, WARRANTY means free replacement,

(No Freon, No Labor, no handling fee, etc.)

in the mind of the manufacturer it means a lo$$ for replacement.

This is why we hide a small labor policy in the price of an install since this hit the fan. If a customer wants a super cheapo system, then they will get what they want!

[ChaseAir]

If the coil was going to last more than a year and they had chinese drywall, it would DEFINITELY leak within a year. Chinese drywall ruins the entire wiring, coils, house, appliances ,etc. You may as well tear it down and build a new one.

[ChaseAir]

Near as I can tell, thin copper with rifling inside to make the system more efficient, coupled with typical copper corrossion is to blame.

So making our world more efficient results in freon leaks. How is this helping the ozone layer again? As if this stuff hurt the ozone layer anyway.