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Thread: Miracle?

  1. #1
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    Miracle?

    I'm certain that those who have lost their faith will be able to justify this in secular terms, and that is a shame. Even the media is using the term "miracle" for the lives of these miners who have been spared death for now. For myself and other believers, here is the main focus of this story;
    "A miracle has finally happened," Liu Dezheng told reporters Monday morning, after the first nine miners were taken out shortly after midnight. "We believe that more miracles will happen."
    Liu Dezheng "believed". I don't know what Liu Dezheng's theological insight is. It could be Hindu, Budhist, Christian or any other. The point here is that Liu Dezheng "believed". And I believe that Liu Dezheng and others who believed were responded to by that in which they believed.

    In a nation that has had more mining accidents then any where else in the world, we as Americans surely must recognize that those miners staying alive under those conditions for so long is nothing short of miraculous.
    Government is a disease...
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  2. #2
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    Exactly what was the miracle????
    That they had air....did it just appear as oxygen or maybe there was a tiny crack that let some in??
    Its just mathematical complexities & computable events that allowed the survivors to survive...

    Drop 1000 people from an airplane & one or a few WILL live through it...not a miracle, just coincidence / chance.

    MIRACLE & HERO are the two most ABUSED words in the english language...IMO

    Richard
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  3. #3
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    As I had stated, those who have lost their faith will convince themselves of any number of reasons why those men all survived. Those of us of faith understand that when things happen for the good against the odds of what is normal, this is usually an intervention of a spiritual nature.

    The number of things that would have normally ended the lives of these men, did not. In this case, it was actually worse then in many other cases of mining disasters because of the water involved.

    Hypothermia from being constantly exposed to running water alone should have claimed many of these men. The body looses heat at an enormous rate when exposed to water, especially water that is 20 degrees lower in temperature then the average annual temperature of the air in the same region.

    Then there was the danger of drowning. Whether or not these men had light has not been mentioned, but if not, can you imagine trying to manipulate your situation in order to keep you out of the water in the pitch dark?

    How about food? The water was obviously available, but the only food source was sawdust, which is not the most nutricious.

    So, we have men who must have been severely weakened by malnutrition, hypothermia, extreme fear for their lives and the horrifying 9 days of beling isolated from everything that would sustain their lives. Think about that; 9 days. That's 216 hours (432 1/2 hour tv shows) or 12,960 minutes. Take a look at your watch and wait out a minute. Now do it in the dark hanging from a ceiling beam with water rushing under you in wet clothes.

    I don't expect everyone to see the miracle in this, but there is no doubt in my mind that this falls under the miraculous.

    These definitions of miracle cover this event from both theological and secular attitudes;
    Main Entry: mir·a·cle
    Pronunciation: \ˈmir-i-kəl\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
    Date: 12th century
    1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
    2 : an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
    3 Christian Science : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law
    If someone does not see a miracle here, they are blinded by denial.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornriding View Post
    Exactly what was the miracle????
    That they had air....did it just appear as oxygen or maybe there was a tiny crack that let some in??
    Its just mathematical complexities & computable events that allowed the survivors to survive...

    Drop 1000 people from an airplane & one or a few WILL live through it...not a miracle, just coincidence / chance.

    MIRACLE & HERO are the two most ABUSED words in the english language...IMO

    Richard
    I suppose the question to you is; do you consider any event that has occured to be a miracle?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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    Main Entry: mir·a·cle
    Pronunciation: \ˈmir-i-kəl\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
    Date: 12th century
    1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
    2 : an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
    3 Christian Science : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

    So a miracle is no longer just divine intervention? Is this the politically correct version of a miracle?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdrake65 View Post
    Main Entry: mir·a·cle
    Pronunciation: \ˈmir-i-kəl\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
    Date: 12th century
    1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
    2 : an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
    3 Christian Science : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

    So a miracle is no longer just divine intervention? Is this the politically correct version of a miracle?
    Since it's a 12th century adaptation to mean "to wonder at", I would suggest that the pious interjected divine intervention in order for miracle to work for their spiritual events. For all we know, the Romans may have concocted the word to make more money off of alleged miracles such as crying statues and images of Mary, Mother of Jesus, in bread, clouds and mushrooms.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    I suppose the question to you is; do you consider any event that has occured to be a miracle?
    Actually, NO.... a miracle, as used by religious people, is just a mathematical possibility.
    I don't know the story of which you speak, Robo, But surely you don't think that God allowed these men to live for some reason, by producing a MIRACLE...
    If thats the case, then how about the many, many minors who have died in such accidents....did God LET them die, just for some reason????
    To me, to believe in miracles, means that you believe that God intervened by some action...which, of course, means that if he didn't intervene the people then died, so he had a part in killing them, or at the least let them die.
    Just doesn't make sense to me...

    Richard
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    I suppose the question to you is; do you consider any event that has occured to be a miracle?
    ya, getting an infant to stop crying............thats a freaking miracle


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornriding View Post
    Actually, NO.... a miracle, as used by religious people, is just a mathematical possibility.
    I don't know the story of which you speak, Robo, But surely you don't think that God allowed these men to live for some reason, by producing a MIRACLE...
    If thats the case, then how about the many, many minors who have died in such accidents....did God LET them die, just for some reason????
    To me, to believe in miracles, means that you believe that God intervened by some action...which, of course, means that if he didn't intervene the people then died, so he had a part in killing them, or at the least let them die.
    Just doesn't make sense to me...

    Richard
    So, you just feel that you have the right to make up meanings of words despite my posting them for you to educate yourself with. How perfectly pompous of you.

    Whether an event happens, in your mind, you can conjure up any mathematical equation to keep you from thinking that a miracle, a wonderous thing, has occured. This is what is referred to as justification.

    As far as God's intervention not making sense to you, what if you were falling off of a cliff within arms reach of people who were not looking at you. If you called for help and get someone's attention, that person can intervene to prevent you from falling to your death. However, if you don't call out for help, you would simply fall to your death. When we pray, God hears us and helps. If you don't pray, you are not calling out and God does not hear you.

    Likewise, others can call out for help for someone in need. That is what group prayer is all about.

    I have not actually heard of minors dying in mines, but many miners who have died in mines died for whatever of an infinite number of reasons they were meant to die. God answers all earnest and honest prayers. Sometimes the answer is no. We cannot fathom the reasons for God's actions or lack thereof. Maybe with those who perish even though they pray not to are simply ready to end their temporary mortal journey.

    The other significant thing about faith that those who have lost their faith cannot grasp is that we are not really knowledgeably enough to be able to understand everything that happens. Despite Satan's promise that we would be like God and know what God knows, it is just not so. Our believing that we are intelligent enough to explain all things without including the Creator God into the mix is our biggest downfall.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    ya, getting an infant to stop crying............thats a freaking miracle


    Hell, getting adult liberals to stop crying is a miracle.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Since it's a 12th century adaptation to mean "to wonder at", I would suggest that the pious interjected divine intervention in order for miracle to work for their spiritual events. For all we know, the Romans may have concocted the word to make more money off of alleged miracles such as crying statues and images of Mary, Mother of Jesus, in bread, clouds and mushrooms.
    Umm, not exactly. "Miracle" (translated) can be found in Aramaic and Greek texts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    So, you just feel that you have the right to make up meanings of words despite my posting them for you to educate yourself with. How perfectly pompous of you.

    Whether an event happens, in your mind, you can conjure up any mathematical equation to keep you from thinking that a miracle, a wonderous thing, has occured. This is what is referred to as justification.

    As far as God's intervention not making sense to you, what if you were falling off of a cliff within arms reach of people who were not looking at you. If you called for help and get someone's attention, that person can intervene to prevent you from falling to your death. However, if you don't call out for help, you would simply fall to your death. When we pray, God hears us and helps. If you don't pray, you are not calling out and God does not hear you.

    Likewise, others can call out for help for someone in need. That is what group prayer is all about.

    I have not actually heard of minors dying in mines, but many miners who have died in mines died for whatever of an infinite number of reasons they were meant to die. God answers all earnest and honest prayers. Sometimes the answer is no. We cannot fathom the reasons for God's actions or lack thereof. Maybe with those who perish even though they pray not to are simply ready to end their temporary mortal journey.

    The other significant thing about faith that those who have lost their faith cannot grasp is that we are not really knowledgeably enough to be able to understand everything that happens. Despite Satan's promise that we would be like God and know what God knows, it is just not so. Our believing that we are intelligent enough to explain all things without including the Creator God into the mix is our biggest downfall.
    Robo? Are you making this up as you go along? LOL

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    Umm, not exactly. "Miracle" (translated) can be found in Aramaic and Greek texts.
    Sorry boots, etymologically speaking, there were no miracles cited in the Bibles. The Aramaic word that is translated into miracle is mopheth, which actually translates to sign, omen, token etc. The Greek words translated as miracle are dunamis and semeion. dunamis is used once by Jesus to denote extreme force, or as the New Testament refers to it as "miraculous power". semeion, like the Aramaic mopheth, again refers to tokens, signs and omens.

    No, what we refer to as miracles is a 12th century depiction of things of wonder;
    Word Origin & History

    miracle
    mid-12c., from O.Fr. miracle, from L. miraculum "object of wonder" (in Church L., "marvelous event caused by God"), from mirari "to wonder at," from mirus "wonderful," from *smeiros, from PIE *(s)mei- "to smile, be astonished" (cf. Skt. smerah "smiling," Gk. meidan "to smile," O.C.S. smejo "to laugh;" see smile). Replaced O.E. wundortacen, wundorweorc. The Gk. words rendered as miracle in the English bibles were semeion "sign," teras "wonder," and dynamis "power," in Vulgate translated respectively as signum, prodigium, and virtus.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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