Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 68
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
    Posts
    18,589

    Doing what we are doing....

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lockhart View Post
    Y'know Art, I thought the same thing at the beginning......but I managed to push past my pig headedness and watch the whole thing. I'm glad I did because 24 years ago when my drunken a$$ was thrown in prison, I realized that with 168 fellow inmates with only one other person including myself in that rathole having a post secondary education.....the main problem with the world was IGNORANCE. An open mind is part of the solution instead of part of the problem.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lockhart View Post
    Whatever you do Art....just keep doing what you did so you can get what you got....
    Doug, I have to tell you how much I love it when someone opens the door.

    What I kept doing is seeking God. What I got was His Word, and salvation. Probably the best reward I can imagine for just asking.

    So yes, I fully intend to keep doing what I did, so I can keep on being blessed as I have been.

    While I was never thrown in jail, I sure could have been, and on several occasions.

    I was a self-trusting Liberal, one who believed that it is our government, and not God, who endows us with our unalienable rights. Boy, was I wrong. But you are right in one respect, in that I kept on seeking knowledge in all areas. I found that most of what I believed as a liberal could not stand up to much scrutiny at all.

    Here are some examples:

    I did not know that it was Republicans who enabled the passage of America's Civil Rights Act. I did know that it was my family, in Phoenixville, Pa, who sponsored the first black cub scout, and that it is these individual acts of human understanding that is the basis of true equality, and that it is not a law that provides it.

    I did not know that Lincoln jailed his critics under the suspension of Habeous Corpus. I did not know that the Johnson’s “war on poverty” would be totally fruitless, because a government cannot end poverty, only those who are poor can end their poverty. I didn't know that our founders knew that our representative republic could only flourish if we remained a "moral people," and to that end, "Mr. Separation of Church and State," Jefferson, had organized Sunday services right in the Capital Building!!!


    I did not know that the Founders provided for our freedom OF religion, and never envisioned a freedom FROM religion.


    I did not know how much many of my friends who were also "progressives" (we loved calling ourselves that, because it made us feel smarter than everyone else) actually disliked the freedoms we were given as Americans. We believed that we had "greater insights," gifts of political knowledge that meant that we should be the only ones who should be leaders and rulers in America. We didn't stop for a moment to realize that these values were 100% counter to the ideas of our Founders, and that the implementation of those ideas had been repeated in culture after culture, and that they resulting in the antithesis of freedom, and the dictatorship of the politically correct, and the oppression of millions.

    We hated War, but it was the willingness of those who lived and died before us who gave us those freedoms we cherished by their war sacrifices of their lives and limbs. It was ironic indeed, how much time and effort we put into trying to end something that God Himself says will not end until He ends it for us, and that the reason we could protest war was due to wars that had been fought before we were even born.

    We railed against corporations, forgetting it was all of us who are the owners of those corporations, and that the benefits we received from them far outweighed their mistakes.

    We tried our best to make life “fair,” ignoring the simple human truth that this life here on earth, governed by our own desires, falls short of what God wants for us, and that we as uninspired humans cannot construct a life here that is “fair,” that we cannot guarantee every benefit we believe to be “right” because such a constructed world is beyond our ability, and that the further we turn away from God as a people, the further we would be turning from the land He inspired our forefathers to create.

    You see, Doug, like most young people, I thought that my generation was the first one to approach these philosophical questions, and that only WE were “smart enough” to have the answers. In fact, it always comes back to that sense of arrogance, the idea that only the smart should rule, that by legislation we can make life “fair,” and that by law we can foster equality. None of that is true. It is a dream of the arrogant. It is a lie.

    We are given a shot at a life when we are created in the womb. Some of us will not survive. Some of us will suffer, and some of us will be rich beyond the dreams of avarice. All of that is possible, and our nation was constructed with such inspiration and acknowledgement of the sovereign grace of God that it is up to each one of us to follow His leadership and our own reasonable laws as a people in order to learn, to lead, and to respond as humble beings to the gifts we are given as a nation and as individuals. We have a right, from God, to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,” but we can expect no guarantees of those things from our fellow citizens or our government. Neither is capable of providing for them, and their only responsibility is to stay out of the way as we strive to achieve and set an example.

    Doug, our greatest error is this self worshipping arrogance that we can make a better life than God has made, and that we can make a better nation that the Founders laid out, and that it is all because of academic knowledge and political attitudes that this can be done. We believe that we can create and enforce equality, and that is not true. We believe that we can create and enforce identical outcomes, and that is not true. We believe that we can, by intelligence and craftiness, “redistribute the wealth” from those who created it to those who have done nothing to achieve it, and that cannot be sustained, as it has failed everywhere it has been tried, and it is still failing every day. Greece is a great example of this, and what is coming.

    In short, if we kept on doing what we had been doing, producing our own energy, keeping wages and benefits competitive with other nations with whom we trade, managing our government financial affairs as we would those of our own families, not relying on insurance to make payments we could never afford, and governing our own lives by a sense of personal responsibility and not personal injury law, we would be far better of than we are today.

    Instead, we will very likely remain a nation of unfunded debt, growing entitlements, and a sense of covetousness that will only lead us to the bleakest of futures, with many of us devoid of faith and love. We will price ourselves out of our standard of living by Cap And Tax, and a fear that God’s creation is not great enough to stand up to the rigors of the people He created, because our new focus of worship is the Creation instead of the Creator. This new environmentalism is built on Faith, so it is indeed a religion, but it is a false religion, one for socialists and anarchists.

    We should have learned these truths from other experiments like this, but our arrogance, once again, prevents many of us from seeing those failures as a warning to our own future.

    So Doug, in a way, you are correct. Ignorance is the problem, but not the ignorance you meant. It is ignorance of our own history, or our own limits and abilities as humans, and most of all, ignorance of the Sovereignty of God.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

    AOP Forum Rules:







  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Vancouver Island, B.C.
    Posts
    2,472
    Y'know Art, I was mistaken....I really had thought your were more intelligent and openminded than that last rant....

    The irony of what you said it that 'YOUR sovereignty of God' is not too darned much different than the next religious zealot's opinion....and of course NO war was ever caused by a pig headed religious zealot, was it?

    I pity the prison you keep yourself in...because it's you that keeps yourself there......just to champion martyrdom.....but heck...you must like doing it because there is not enough pain yet to get you to move out of it...

    I had a counsellor that had a plaque on the wall of his office that used to piss me off " I am the only problem that I will encounter today ". It's up to me and my attitude/openmindedness.
    Again Art, WHATEVER you do don't look at the whole video......you might have to put one of your 'labels' on yourself....
    AND God/Alla/Buddah/Karma forbid you might just have to admit that you learned something....
    "The quality you deserve is not expensive---it's priceless"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
    Posts
    18,589
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lockhart View Post
    Y'know Art, I was mistaken....I really had thought your were more intelligent and openminded than that last rant....

    The irony of what you said it that 'YOUR sovereignty of God' is not too darned much different than the next religious zealot's opinion....and of course NO war was ever caused by a pig headed religious zealot, was it?

    I pity the prison you keep yourself in...because it's you that keeps yourself there......just to champion martyrdom.....but heck...you must like doing it because there is not enough pain yet to get you to move out of it...

    I had a counsellor that had a plaque on the wall of his office that used to piss me off " I am the only problem that I will encounter today ". It's up to me and my attitude/openmindedness.
    Again Art, WHATEVER you do don't look at the whole video......you might have to put one of your 'labels' on yourself....
    AND God/Alla/Buddah/Karma forbid you might just have to admit that you learned something....
    And you were not able to find a single fault with my explanation but to call some names.

    Sad.

    I was in a prison of sorts, the prison of human arrogance. Oh yeah, we liberals were the smartest folks around. Not.

    I expected at least something that was a reflection of the faith that I have heard professed. Some acknowlegment that God just might be smarter than those people whom He created.

    An "open mind" is best guarded by God, lest the foolishness of Men come into it.

    What label would I have to put on myself by watching that video? Clearly, the label would be fool, as these folks have no better an insight than you or I do. Should we trust them to be wise? No.

    God's sovereignty does not come from me, He has it regardless of the view of anyone. But, our Founders knew we could not survive as a people without acknowledging His sovereignty, and accepting His blessings.

    The most important thing that I have leaned, no-one-forbid is this:

    God is Greater.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

    AOP Forum Rules:







  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    6,876
    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    We didn't stop for a moment to realize that these values were 100% counter to the ideas of our Founders, and that the implementation of those ideas had been repeated in culture after culture, and that they resulting in the antithesis of freedom, and the dictatorship of the politically correct, and the oppression of millions.
    I am more of the liberal bent but one that is willing to learn from the mistakes of others. I am curious what these 'ideas' that culture after culture repeat, just in case I actually being oppressed.

    We hated War, but it was the willingness of those who lived and died before us who gave us those freedoms we cherished by their war sacrifices of their lives and limbs. It was ironic indeed, how much time and effort we put into trying to end something that God Himself says will not end until He ends it for us, and that the reason we could protest war was due to wars that had been fought before we were even born.

    I am sure those that fought and died for your freedoms hated war more than you did, being as they were really there. So since God said there will be wars until the final day we are not suppose to try and limit the destructive powers that they unleash on mankind?

    We railed against corporations, forgetting it was all of us who are the owners of those corporations, and that the benefits we received from them far outweighed their mistakes.
    No we do not forget what they provide us. It is when the corporations forget that it is us they ultimately serve that we rally.

    We tried our best to make life “fair,” ignoring the simple human truth that this life here on earth, governed by our own desires, falls short of what God wants for us, and that we as uninspired humans cannot construct a life here that is “fair,” that we cannot guarantee every benefit we believe to be “right” because such a constructed world is beyond our ability, and that the further we turn away from God as a people, the further we would be turning from the land He inspired our forefathers to create.
    We may fall short of what God wants for us but that is no reason that we can not strive for a more 'fair' life. I do not feel such a world is beyond our ability to strive for, we may not attain it but is it not better that we strive and come closer to a fair world rather than not try at all?

    You see, Doug, like most young people, I thought that my generation was the first one to approach these philosophical questions, and that only WE were “smart enough” to have the answers. In fact, it always comes back to that sense of arrogance, the idea that only the smart should rule, that by legislation we can make life “fair,” and that by law we can foster equality. None of that is true. It is a dream of the arrogant. It is a lie.
    So you have grown as a person to learn we do not have all the answers. But having 'not smart' people rule and accept unfairness towards people sounds more like a nightmare than a dream.

    Doug, our greatest error is this self worshipping arrogance that we can make a better life than God has made, and that we can make a better nation that the Founders laid out, and that it is all because of academic knowledge and political attitudes that this can be done.
    Yes when they made that cake they broke the mold since you achieved perfection.

    We believe that we can, by intelligence and craftiness, “redistribute the wealth” from those who created it to those who have done nothing to achieve it, and that cannot be sustained, as it has failed everywhere it has been tried, and it is still failing every day. Greece is a great example of this, and what is coming.
    Pick some more examples, say like Germany.

    ... and a fear that God’s creation is not great enough to stand up to the rigors of the people He created, because our new focus of worship is the Creation instead of the Creator. This new environmentalism is built on Faith, so it is indeed a religion, but it is a false religion, one for socialists and anarchists.
    So you are saying damn the environment because God made sure whatever we do to it, it will provide for us?

    We should have learned these truths from other experiments like this, but our arrogance, once again, prevents many of us from seeing those failures as a warning to our own future.

    So Doug, in a way, you are correct. Ignorance is the problem, but not the ignorance you meant. It is ignorance of our own history, or our own limits and abilities as humans, and most of all, ignorance of the Sovereignty of God.
    I would agree with you, ignorance is a problem.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
    Posts
    18,589
    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    I am more of the liberal bent but one that is willing to learn from the mistakes of others. I am curious what these 'ideas' that culture after culture repeat, just in case I actually being oppressed.
    Look at Russia first, Germany second, and the modern European Union community. Look at China. Look at Greece. Greece is top heavy with government employees and beneficiaries, and they are where the US may be shortly, if we are not careful. They were proceeding on the idea that you can employ as large portion of their population in the government, and have the rest of the population pay for it. Their ponzi scheme has collapsed.

    In the case of Italy and Germany in the 1940's, a charismatic leader with a lot of ideas that the people deemed to be "smart" were able to oppress millions, even murder millions, because they convinced people that these were good ideas. In the case of China, Mao starved and murdered literally millions of Chinese, yet, we do not even think of it as a Holocaust, and people serving in the White House just last year opined that they looked up to Chairman Mao for political guidance.

    God was not a part of the inspiration.


    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    I am sure those that fought and died for your freedoms hated war more than you did, being as they were really there. So since God said there will be wars until the final day we are not suppose to try and limit the destructive powers that they unleash on mankind?
    No, but that was an easy cop. It means that we can struggle all we want, and sometimes we can avoid war, but war is a symptom of sin, and we cannot purge ourselves of it. Chiefly, we must always stand up against Evil. That is the point of the War on Terror.

    So, instead of making it a life's work to protest against EVERY war, and we have many who do that, accept that God tells us that war is a result of sin, and that we will have both wrong wars and righteous wars. God led his people to many victories in the Old Testament. WWII was a good example of a just and righteous war, as is the War on Terror.

    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    No we do not forget what they provide us. It is when the corporations forget that it is us they ultimately serve that we rally.
    We are their owners. We need not rally, just have all of our brokers sell their stock. We can also buy from someone else. WE have the power. Secondly, our corporations MUST make a profit, because our retirements are invested in securities of those firms.

    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    We may fall short of what God wants for us but that is no reason that we can not strive for a more 'fair' life. I do not feel such a world is beyond our ability to strive for, we may not attain it but is it not better that we strive and come closer to a fair world rather than not try at all?
    Here is the key concept: striving for a fair life is not a function of government, it is a function of individual people.

    Government is INCAPABLE of determining fairness, because it is a self sustaining machine. One third of Americans now work for some level of government. The government worker makes 60% MORE than a similar private sector employee. How can we sustain this? The government worker will continually vote to have their master fleece the rest of the population so they can live better and retire early. This is government "fairness."

    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    So you have grown as a person to learn we do not have all the answers. But having 'not smart' people rule and accept unfairness towards people sounds more like a nightmare than a dream.
    Unfairness, as you call it, is life. You cannot legislate against life. You can kill people, you can tax them till they bleed, you can abort their children, and you can euthanize the old. But what kind of life is that? It is not liberty, I can tell you that. There are smart people that understand the basis of America, and they are not now in power. Our current crop thinks they have no peer in the arena of ideas, and that is a totally false assumption. If we base today's decisions on the wisdom of God and the Founders, we can always find our way. Charity comes from people, and not governments. Fairness comes from people, inspired by God. It is not a total fairness, it is a one on one fairness. That is the result of Godly people living in freedom and liberty.


    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    Yes when they made that cake they broke the mold since you achieved perfection.
    Where did I say that I achieved perfection? All of my deeds are as filthy rags. All I did was accept the free gift that God offers to everyone. If I can be saved, with my hundreds of faults, anyone can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    So you are saying damn the environment because God made sure whatever we do to it, it will provide for us?
    No, I am saying that our Founders laid out a plan for a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Our current government is for itself, and its power and legacy, and its decisions are now being based on failed ideas of redistribution and enforced "fairness," which is tyranny.

    When God returns to reign on Earth, this will be fulfilled, from Isaiah 9:6

    "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders."

    The Bible tells us that he will return to earth to conquer evil after the Tribulation. When this happens, God will institute His government on Earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    I would agree with you, ignorance is a problem.
    Indeed. Until the last century, every learned man knew the Bible. Now, they do not know it, and further, they trust only the limited wisdom of Man for their guidance. It is the guidance of God that the Founders assumed would allow a representative republic to work.


    .
    Last edited by timebuilder; 04-04-2010 at 10:13 PM.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

    AOP Forum Rules:







  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,944
    Interesting thread. I think I'll just set by and learn from this one.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    6,876
    I see we really have a different way of looking at the world.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
    Posts
    18,589
    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    I see we really have a different way of looking at the world.

    No doubt.

    I'm sticking with the way of the one who created it.

    I already investigated the other way.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

    AOP Forum Rules:







  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    6,876
    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    No doubt.

    I'm sticking with the way of the one who created it.

    I already investigated the other way.
    The original inhabitants of this neck of the woods say it was a different creator.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Vancouver Island, B.C.
    Posts
    2,472
    Contempt prior to investigation is self fulfilling prophecy Art.....and I think your pendulum of philosophy just might have hit the opposite extreme in the swing....
    Ruled by fear you are buddy....
    Don't change a thing Art...you're perfect.......
    "The quality you deserve is not expensive---it's priceless"

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    20,677
    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    The original inhabitants of this neck of the woods say it was a different creator.
    Nah, they don't. They're dead. And if they are speaking to you, you got other problems.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,944
    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    The original inhabitants of this neck of the woods say it was a different creator.
    If you are referring to indigenous tribal peoples, not really. While the tribal peoples of the North American continent revered multiple spiritual entities, they also held to a singular God overall. North American tribal beliefs are closer to ancient Hebrew beliefs then not.

    Besides, it makes no difference what God has been referred to by different cultures over the time span of man around the four corners (figuratively speaking) of the world, the Creator is the same no matter how we as mere mortals think of God.

    Take all of the good gods of Pagan myth, put them together and you have God the Creator....the God of Abraham. Same goes for the bad gods being what Judeo-Christian scriptures relate as the singular Satan.

    God has never been different or ever changed. It is man's many perceptions of God that causes the confusions.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,944
    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    Nah, they don't. They're dead. And if they are speaking to you, you got other problems.
    Deceased ancestors exist very well in our memories. So, why would the teachings and wisdoms of our ancestors not come to us in time of need, even if only in our minds eye? This one is an easy one to understand as being misconstrued as being visited by spirits of the dead. In a way, our memories of the dead are their spiritual essence.

    Why do we feel the need to dwell on what we want to believe are incorrect beliefs of others rather then look at how our beliefs are actually the same, just from different vantage points?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event