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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    5

    N2 over Ethernet

    Hi

    I have an UNT at a remote location that i would like to hook up to a FX40 remotely. The remote site is connected to the main office via a wireless network connection.

    So my main question is there a product that will convert a N2 bus to Ethernet and then back to N2?

    Thanks for your help and suggestions!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,250

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    2444 Washington Blvd, Suite 100 Ogden, UT
    Posts
    363
    Quote Originally Posted by amigo View Post
    Thank you Amigo. You are correct. There are actually multiple ways that we can support this capability. GW43matt my contact information is in my profile.
    Steve Jones
    Managing Partner
    The S4 Group, Inc.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    607
    Quote Originally Posted by amigo View Post
    Indeed, Amigo is correct here.

    We have a number of customers using our S2N2E that are doing exactly what the original poster is planning to do.

    I would not suggest for you to use any of the simple RS-485 (N2 bus) to Ethernet converters, as these units do not have any built-in smarts to deal with any of the inherent Ethernet issues (i.e. packet latency, dropped/lost packets, etc) that you will experience in real World installations. Further, adding wireless to the mix will also add issues too (i.e. packet latency, etc).

    Cheers,

    Sam

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    949
    Yeah, but which of the two is the best value?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    607
    Quote Originally Posted by NINAX View Post
    Yeah, but which of the two is the best value?
    Good day Ninax,

    I guess only the original poster can really determine this. I do not know Steve's product and so I cannot comment. In regards to our S2N2E device, is quite simple to use and implement. All you need to do is add one S2N2E device (stand alone and powered by 16-24V AC/DC) to your local N2 trunk and another (one or more) S2N2E at the remote location(s). The S2N2E does not care what type of Ethernet connection you have (wired or wireless), as long as it can accommodate a static IP address and is fairly well managed (i.e. stable link and properly load balanced). Configuration is straightforward in that you just enter the standard Ethernet data (IP address, gateway IP, netmask, etc) and the N2 device(s) you are connecting to.

    The only potential issue is that the S2N2E does not support VMA controllers (i.e. if the original poster needed this is the future). However, this may soon change....

    Cheers,

    Sam

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    2444 Washington Blvd, Suite 100 Ogden, UT
    Posts
    363
    Quote Originally Posted by NINAX View Post
    Yeah, but which of the two is the best value?
    Maybe this is an opportunity for some of you who have used each of the products to comment. Sam and I have known each other for many years and I have a lot of respect for his products and business ethics. In fact, we met while I was still with JCI.

    What I proposed for this application was our S4 Open: BACnet-N2 Router-16. This is the smallest product in our BACnet-N2 Router product family. It supports anything that you will find on the N2 bus. The auto configure wizard discovers all N2 devices on the bus, assigns point maps to them, and publishes them to BACnet IP. I proposed this because it completely localizes the N2 traffic and BACnet IP will more likely be able to survive any glitches in the wireless environment.

    To the FX40 our BACnet-N2 Router will look like any other BACnet device so the points that they need from the N2 devices can be very easily brought into the system. Metasys points are published as standard BACnet data objects with 6 digit instance numbers. The leftmost 3 digits reflect the address of the N2 device that the point came from. The rightmost 3 digits are used as a sequence number to make sure that the instance number is unique.

    Where the rubber hits the road is when we find out how well each product met this customer's needs.
    Steve Jones
    Managing Partner
    The S4 Group, Inc.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,250
    Steve, I have been always interested in your product. But it has always been difficult to determine what they really cost.
    What I like about Sam's product is some of the true prices of his products are published on his website, and when I call him I get a straight answer, not all this who you are, how many you sell, etc.
    I understand that typically there needs to be a distribution structure in place, and distributors need to make their cut.
    But for regular/low sales volume integrators/resellers it is much more convenient and welcoming when they can have easy access and find out their true costs easily.

    You can contact me via my profile, if you like to share the costs of your products.


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    2444 Washington Blvd, Suite 100 Ogden, UT
    Posts
    363
    Quote Originally Posted by amigo View Post
    Steve, I have been always interested in your product. But it has always been difficult to determine what they really cost.
    What I like about Sam's product is some of the true prices of his products are published on his website, and when I call him I get a straight answer, not all this who you are, how many you sell, etc.
    I understand that typically there needs to be a distribution structure in place, and distributors need to make their cut.
    But for regular/low sales volume integrators/resellers it is much more convenient and welcoming when they can have easy access and find out their true costs easily.

    You can contact me via my profile, if you like to share the costs of your products.

    The pricing is not a secret. Here it is as an attached .PDF. In a few weeks we will be releasing a new web site with shopping cart capabilities so it will all be there in plain site. We do offer discounts to our partners depending on the type of relationship they are looking for and the volumes that they can generate.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Steve Jones
    Managing Partner
    The S4 Group, Inc.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    672

    Use the S2N2E

    Used the S2N2E product - as you are going wireless.

    The S2N2E can be setup (by Sam) with software timers. This will account for lost comms and not flag the FX40 on and off a thousand times.

    We have used it for very long runs over modems and wireless without any issues to date.


    Good-luck

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    607
    Quote Originally Posted by steves4 View Post
    Maybe this is an opportunity for some of you who have used each of the products to comment. Sam and I have known each other for many years and I have a lot of respect for his products and business ethics. In fact, we met while I was still with JCI.

    What I proposed for this application was our S4 Open: BACnet-N2 Router-16. This is the smallest product in our BACnet-N2 Router product family. It supports anything that you will find on the N2 bus. The auto configure wizard discovers all N2 devices on the bus, assigns point maps to them, and publishes them to BACnet IP. I proposed this because it completely localizes the N2 traffic and BACnet IP will more likely be able to survive any glitches in the wireless environment.

    To the FX40 our BACnet-N2 Router will look like any other BACnet device so the points that they need from the N2 devices can be very easily brought into the system. Metasys points are published as standard BACnet data objects with 6 digit instance numbers. The leftmost 3 digits reflect the address of the N2 device that the point came from. The rightmost 3 digits are used as a sequence number to make sure that the instance number is unique.

    Where the rubber hits the road is when we find out how well each product met this customer's needs.
    Good day Steve,

    Thank you for your comments! And likewise from my side too

    Your S4-Open and the S2N2E are sufficiently different in terms of how they look and operate (the S2N2E creates a completely transparent link to the FX-40 or any other N2 bus supervisory controller) that determining which is better suited for the original poster's needs is difficult and rather moot. I am sure either solution (or perhaps another one or many may come up to) would work fine for the application. However, there are probably other factors (perhaps non-technical) that will also influence the decision too.

    In regards to your comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by steves4 View Post
    The auto configure wizard discovers all N2 devices on the bus, assigns point maps to them, and publishes them to BACnet IP
    The S2N2E must be configured with what devices are being connected. However, all possible N2 objects are available to all devices regardless of the specific device. That being said, there are some internal DX objects (not points) that are not supported.

    Quote Originally Posted by steves4 View Post
    I proposed this because it completely localizes the N2 traffic and BACnet IP will more likely be able to survive any glitches in the wireless environment.
    The S2N2E easily accommodates this without issue. The S2N2E can withstand up to a (non-sustained) 9 second packet delay without grief. If packet delays are consistently long (10's of seconds, etc) or the link is periodically intermittent, there are (user) configuration parameters that can be adjusted to minimize any erroneous off-lines that may and would occur.

    Cheers,

    Sam

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Posts
    607
    Quote Originally Posted by integrator View Post
    Used the S2N2E product - as you are going wireless.

    The S2N2E can be setup (by Sam) with software timers. This will account for lost comms and not flag the FX40 on and off a thousand times.

    We have used it for very long runs over modems and wireless without any issues to date.


    Good-luck
    Good day Integrator,

    Thanks for kudos

    In fact, the "software timers" you mention are now a standard firmware feature (user configurable option) in the S2N2Es.

    Cheers,

    Sam

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    2444 Washington Blvd, Suite 100 Ogden, UT
    Posts
    363
    Quote Originally Posted by s2sam View Post
    Good day Steve,

    Thank you for your comments! And likewise from my side too

    Your S4-Open and the S2N2E are sufficiently different in terms of how they look and operate (the S2N2E creates a completely transparent link to the FX-40 or any other N2 bus supervisory controller) that determining which is better suited for the original poster's needs is difficult and rather moot. I am sure either solution (or perhaps another one or many may come up to) would work fine for the application. However, there are probably other factors (perhaps non-technical) that will also influence the decision too.

    In regards to your comments:



    The S2N2E must be configured with what devices are being connected. However, all possible N2 objects are available to all devices regardless of the specific device. That being said, there are some internal DX objects (not points) that are not supported.



    The S2N2E easily accommodates this without issue. The S2N2E can withstand up to a (non-sustained) 9 second packet delay without grief. If packet delays are consistently long (10's of seconds, etc) or the link is periodically intermittent, there are (user) configuration parameters that can be adjusted to minimize any erroneous off-lines that may and would occur.

    Cheers,

    Sam
    It is nice that the integrator community has choices! It usually boils down to what they really need, what they are willing to pay, and what they are comfortable to with.
    Steve Jones
    Managing Partner
    The S4 Group, Inc.

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