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  1. #27
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    May 2002
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    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
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    Quote Originally Posted by crab master View Post
    I haven't. Looks pretty cool though. Sedona, Bacnet and Modbus looks like their only comms briefing the documentation. The drag and drop workbench is huge
    Is it really that special to have multiple protocols communicating concurrently in one device? I've been doing LON, Modbus RTU, Bacnet IP and proprietary communication out of the same device for awhile. Most are doing 3 or less protocols, but there are a few doing 4. Maybe I've just been lucky, or my ignorance in mainly dealing with one manufacturer, but I never thought of it being that special. I recall talking to one guy who simply never thought of trying multiple protocols out of one device, he was always buying another device, didn't mind telling him about it, don't have stock in that company!
    With TAC Crab?
    Quote Originally Posted by MatrixTransform View Post
    very soon it is you that will be pwned

  2. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    So, you need to put this Sedona into your proprietary Tridium Box with licensing, upgrade and software costs. At that point you convert.... Expensive. And concurrent communication in multiple protocols -specifically LON and BACnet... not "so easy". I think if you actually analyzed your performance you would be in for a surprise.

    Seems to me you are extremely locked in to a specific manufacturer. I use manufacturer very loosely because what do they actually manufacture?

    What happens in the near future when the other big vendors dump support? Then it's just the Honeywell group. What if you are on the outs? What do you do?
    http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/startrek/images/tng.mid

    As for HW...you may be right. Who knows?...but you could say the same about anybody and anything.

  3. #29
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    May 2002
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    9,564
    Quote Originally Posted by freddy-b View Post
    As for HW...you may be right. Who knows?...but you could say the same about anybody and anything.
    In many respects I suppose you are correct. However, if you have an open interface product you minimize the issues and are able to migrate to a different product rather easily.

    You don't think much about that with VAV box controllers. However, these mid level boxes is a completely different story.

  4. #30
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    Jul 2008
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    1,453
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    ...put this Sedona into your proprietary Tridium Box with licensing, upgrade and software costs.

    .... what on earth are you talking about.
    ... sedona is open source and built into Worbench

    ... Modbus, Lon or bacnet in a jace costs about XXXXXX or less each.
    ... big boyz dumping support for open protocols???
    ...sounds like more scare-mongering to me.

    ...screw em all .. use modbus TCP
    Last edited by Dad; 10-06-2010 at 10:27 PM. Reason: pricing
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  5. #31
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Matrix, It appears your Sedona boxes do not do bacnet and LON.
    Therefore you need a Tridium box for that.
    Last time I checked Tridium has yearly fees, upgrade charges and software costs.
    So, for your cost you mention you can get other products much less cost that do the same things with no yearly fees, upgrade charges, or software costs.

    They just always do those protocols with no driver costs. When you see the box it just has and does... no magic licensing wand required to enable another protocol.

    The big boys really don't care about open protocols. But, I don't see them dumping open protocols as we are too far along. I see them dumping a proprietary framework. Maybe you will like it JCI, Schneider, and that single Siemens owned product dump.

    This will leave some Honeywell brands, ASI, Distech and Trane (somewhat). Didn't AAM move on already? Further, I don't think Honeywell bought Matrikon for nothing.

    So, I see why Sedona is here. Another convenient protocol for them to make it more enticing to the shorter-sighted continue to buy their software. Good Play. You are lapping it up.

    I just hope Sedona is better than Modbus. Modbus is the excuse manufacturers use not to put some effort into making a decent product.
    There are no standards to follow on data and implementation is easy on the manufacturing side. When I hear this I initially equate the term lazy with it. Why implement something useful like bacnet or LON when you need follow no standards with Modbus?

  6. #32
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    Jul 2008
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    Sysint ... you make me laugh. Bigboys dumping proprietary framework??? That IS funny....they cant dump it because the consulting engineers and customers are DEMANDING it....the problem with the bigboyz is that they cant effectively let go of the idea that they control the market. Proprietary is OVER dude...it is sooo last decade...get over it and move on!

    You also go out of your way to make scary noises about licensing and fees...but basically you dont know what youre talking about.

    In context here, it sounds like youre trying to say a proprietary system using an open protocol (bacnet, lon?) is capable of the things Tridium is??? ....what a joke!
    Find me a system that will do everything Tridium can do anywhere near as cost effectively, and without the customer being bent over and royally screwed ... I challenge you.

    ...go on, pick a system and I'll tear it to bits on price, capability, and OPEN-NESS every time....lets not even get started on the customer service aspects of the argument.

    So anyway...
    Easyio controllers do Bacnet, ModbusRTU, ModbusTCP and sedona (concurrently)
    Sedona = programming framework... If you prefer, then simply flash the same controller with a eEprom different image and do the programming with Firefox or IE.
    If you dont wanna use Tridium, then dont, thats your choice to make.

    If you want Lon ...or pretty much any other protocol... pay yer Tridium fees then buy a JACE and add it...maybe a JACE with lon costs XXXXXX
    ...program it COMPLETELY with Firefox or IE
    ...Manage your lon net COMPLETELY with Firefox or IE
    ...deploy them at will
    ...what upgrade??
    ...what license?
    ...I could even teach you how to do it too.
    :-)


    ...modbus is lazy??? Nah, modbus is OPEN.
    ...so is sedona
    ...so is tridium.
    Last edited by Dad; 10-06-2010 at 10:28 PM. Reason: pricing again
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    1,453
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    I just hope Sedona is better than Modbus. Modbus is the excuse manufacturers use not to put some effort into making a decent product.
    There are no standards to follow on data and implementation is easy on the manufacturing side. When I hear this I initially equate the term lazy with it. Why implement something useful like bacnet or LON when you need follow no standards with Modbus?
    Is that right ???? Maybe if you open yer mouth wider you could get both feet in :-)

    ... http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/info/modbus.html

    ... http://www.modbus.org/docs/Modbus_Ap...ocol_V1_1b.pdf
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  8. #34
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    Feb 2008
    Location
    Purcellville Va.
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    712
    In context here, it sounds like youre trying to say a proprietary system using an open protocol (bacnet, lon?) is capable of the things Tridium is??? ....what a joke!
    Find me a system that will do everything Tridium can do anywhere near as cost effectively, and without the customer being bent over and royally screwed ... I challenge you.
    OK, I'll bite.
    Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Isn't Tridium primarily an integration tool? I'm not aware of a system that only has Tridium devices unless you are talking about a plant run with all IO.

    Now understand I know very little about Tridium but don't put it up on a pedestal when there are any number of ways to do things without it.
    I'm sure Tridium makes an integrators job much easier in many ways but I'm not sold on it.

    Take for instance a typical whole building retrofit.
    If you are going to retrofit a whole building then just use one protocol (Lon, bacnet or Modbus or other) and why bother with the extra expense of Tridium. I work for a property management firm and I see it all the time. An old building is getting a new BAS and everyone wants to sell them a T-box. Why???
    I did a flat LNS install at my building and No Tridium. Tridium would not have made the job easier or better. In my case it would have made it quite a bit more expensive.
    Find me a system that will do everything Tridium can do anywhere near as cost effectively, and without the customer being bent over and royally screwed ... I challenge you.
    Challenge taken.

    I am not bashing Tridium just don't make it something it aint.

  9. #35
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    ...why would anybody want to use any other product

    building getting an upgrade?....dont replace existing TEC, MicroFLowII, XL10, VMA controllers with something else when you can simply connect them straight to a JACE. save yourself maybe $50k and make the owner happy.

    Why use LNS? Tridium manages Lon in a much more useful way anyway.

    Foreign serial protocol...use the FlexDriver and capture the ascii via the com port

    Extra expense of Tridium??? ....I dont think so. Im pretty sure that there wont be anything more cost effective.

    Ive got a campus with TAC iNet, Siemens TEC, Alerton BAcnet, modbus power meters... with one Tridium Jace....or one Tridium Workstation I can bring the entire complex together into one system.

    ...move to next campus.
    ...seamlessly integrate 5 buildings across the WAN
    ... no probs

    ...next campus
    ...display energy, water, gas usage in coherent reporting.
    ...no probs, SMALL license fee, bit of programming
    ...job done.

    ....next building
    ... small new install needs a web connected controller with a handful of IO?
    ... no prob...just try and beat me on price.
    ... I can cut and past stuff like a graphics or Chiller HLI in about 2 minutes.
    ... drag and drop, change an address.
    ... bang! theres data.


    ...there is nothing else like Tridium
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Purcellville Va.
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    712
    ...there is nothing else like Tridium
    Tridium is an excellent solution, I am not debating that.

    I personally don't think you can universally say that it is the best solution for every circumstance. That is what I am hearing you say and maybe I am misunderstanding you.

    I am hoping to get an opportunity to learn Tridium soon so maybe I will eat my words eventually but until then the lively debate goes on

    But please elaborate on how Tridium manages lon in a more useful way? (I'm not arguing just asking)

  11. #37
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    Jul 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by 381engineer View Post
    But please elaborate on how Tridium manages lon in a more useful way? (I'm not arguing just asking)
    ....no LNS (or associated node fees), no Lonmaker, no iLon,
    ....just about everything you want to do can be done
    ....Mind you, LNS plug-ins wont work of course which may present some issues in some cases.

    ...drop in a lon card and driver (maybXXXXXX)
    ...connect the 2 wires to card
    ...open Lonworks Palette
    ...drag LonNetwork object onto Drivers in the Nav Tree
    ...double-click the LonNetwork object
    ...in the right hand window press the Discover Button.
    ... etc etc etc

    ...wanna do Bacnet as well in the same controller?
    ...or Modbus?

    ... have coffee and smile at how lovely the world is.
    Last edited by Dad; 10-06-2010 at 10:29 PM. Reason: removed per committee request
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  12. #38
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    Jul 2008
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    1,453
    Quote Originally Posted by 381engineer View Post
    I personally don't think you can universally say that it is the best solution for every circumstance. That is what I am hearing you say and maybe I am misunderstanding you.
    look, youre a building manager right? wee...

    Im the guy you call when Siemens wont answer the phone.
    Im the guy you call when you have an unsupported legacy control system
    Im the guy that Siemens, Honeywell, Alerton, Johnson, Reliable etc etc etc want to capture as a distributor
    Im the guy that is forced to choose which alliance to make
    Im the guy that Alerton wont sell to
    Im the guy that Siemens wont sell PXC to, JCI wont sell their FEC and IOM to, Im the guy Honeywell wont sell XL5000 and XBS to.

    ....but I have Tridium.

    ... so, now Im the one that can pretty much make anything work
    ... everytime a Alerton wont sell a controller I tell the customer "Gee, thats not very OPEN is it?"
    ...everytime Schneider say "NO", it make a new opportunity open up for me
    ... Every time Siemens say that will cost $250 per hour I say to the customer "Would you ike to change to Tridium? Do you want to keep the field controllers or replace them?"

    I guess from my point of view that Tridium pretty much IS the only solution.

    ;-)
    1 + 1 = 3 ( *** for very large values of 1)

    ...everybody wants a box of chocolates and long stemmed rose

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Purcellville Va.
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    712
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 381engineer View Post
    I personally don't think you can universally say that it is the best solution for every circumstance. That is what I am hearing you say and maybe I am misunderstanding you.
    look, youre a building manager right? wee...

    Im the guy you call when Siemens wont answer the phone.
    Im the guy you call when you have an unsupported legacy control system
    Im the guy that Siemens, Honeywell, Alerton, Johnson, Reliable etc etc etc want to capture as a distributor
    Im the guy that is forced to choose which alliance to make
    Im the guy that Alerton wont sell to
    Im the guy that Siemens wont sell PXC to, JCI wont sell their FEC and IOM to, Im the guy Honeywell wont sell XL5000 and XBS to.

    ....but I have Tridium.

    ... so, now Im the one that can pretty much make anything work
    ... everytime a Alerton wont sell a controller I tell the customer "Gee, thats not very OPEN is it?"
    ...everytime Schneider say "NO", it make a new opportunity open up for me
    ... Every time Siemens say that will cost $250 per hour I say to the customer "Would you ike to change to Tridium? Do you want to keep the field controllers or replace them?"

    I guess from my point of view that Tridium pretty much IS the only solution.

    ;-)
    From your point of view....

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