Bryant dual fuel without Evolution and tax credits?

[PHRoberts]

I just talked to my HVAC contractor, and long story short, I'm being told that there's no way to get the tax credit for a dual fuel system unless I go with the Evolution system. I would be all for that except my duct work would need to be upgraded - so the cost of the Evolution system would be double that of the 90%AFUE furnace, 15SEER HP non evolution system. This isn't the last house we'll ever buy, and I can't justify the additonal expense.

When I look at Bryant's web site there are a ton of gas furnaces there rated at 95% plus, but I can't find pairing information on the consumer site. Is my contractor correct that there is no HP/Gas furnace/Coil combination that would qualify for the federal tax credit other than the Evolution system in the Bryant lineup?

Thanks!

Heath

[PHRoberts]

Thanks for fixing the title...

[RyanHughes]

They might be trying to get the outdoor air conditioner portion of the system to qualify as well, but the furnace installation cost alone can qualify for the tax credit up to 30% of installed cost (and sometimes dealers only use the furnace to qualify, just adding the labor/misc. costs to the "furnace portion" so the home owner gets the full $1500). A 95% efficiency furnace will qualify. To my knowledge, the Evolution is not the only qualifying model--Preferred 95 series furnaces should as well. You would lose the variable speed blower ability, which I'm sure you've been told about (can be setup with Evolution system to really improve humidity control), but installation is the most important part in making sure you have a well performing system.

[PHRoberts]

So the only way to utilize the variable speed blower would be to use the Evolution controls? I have an "investment" (in quotes since the word investment implies profit, which is sadly no longer the case) property with a 5 year old Trane heat pump system that ramps the blower speed up and down on it's own, and is apparently all controlled within the air handler. The controls are nothing special...

Thanks,

Heath

[RyanHughes]

The variable speed blower can operate on its own to maintain airflow, and most if not all brands have some switches in the furnace/air handler to configure a ramp-up profile to slowly increase airflow to remove humidity. But, the Evolution controller or a similar control is needed to get the most humidity control. For instance, some controls send a signal to lower airflow when needed (rather than at the beginning of EACH cycle, which is less efficient). Some controls can also control the staging of the outdoor unit (low/high stage) along with airflow to reach a humidity setpoint, but I don't think you're looking at 2-stage outdoor units, so this doesn't apply in this particular case. All in all, no, an Evolution controller is not needed to see benefits from a variable speed blower. Its ability to maintain airflow better than a conventional blower (by adjusting RPM as needed) and its increased efficiency alone will still be there. Unfortunately in Carrier/Bryant's furnace line, only the Infinity/Evolution models include the variable speed blower motor. There are Carrier/Bryant 95% furnaces that do not have the variable speed blower but still meet the tax credit requirements.

[PHRoberts]

Unfortunately in Carrier/Bryant's furnace line, only the Infinity/Evolution models include the variable speed blower motor.

Ryan - I really appreciate all of your help!

According to Bryant's site, the Legacy 95, Preferred 90x, Preferred 95 and Preferred 95i and of course all of the Evolution furnaces have an "Electrically efficient variable speed fan" - is that different than the variable speed blower you're referring to?

Thanks!

Heath

[RyanHughes]

Heath,

Looks like either I was misinformed or Bryant has been changing their product line recently. You are correct, I see that the Preferred 95i (which looks very similar to the Evolution model) and Preferred 95 have the variable speed blower. I do not believe the others do based on what I looked at here http://www.catalog.bryant.com/corp/d..._SIT70,00.html. You can glean some more info on the models there if that might help you make the decision easier. It's important to note that not all sizes and configurations (i.e., horizontal, downflow, or upflow) reach the 95% efficiency rating. That's why sometimes the model names can be deceiving, because the 95 may only be 93 in some cases. Your dealer can easily determine whether your configuration/size of whichever model you're interested in qualifies, and it should be listed in the product data pdf file of each model on the site I linked above.


If you are looking for a good 15 SEER HP/gas furnace dual fuel system, based on briefly looking at the models I would say that the Preferred 95i furnace and the Preferred 15 heat pump along with matching coil, sized and installed properly, would be a very good combination. These would have the capability of using a Bryant thermostat to control humidity (often called "thermidistats"). That is if the Evolution system doesn't appeal to you (which would buy you some more features on the thermostat and communication capabilities - which aren't of importance to some people).
Ryan

[PHRoberts]

I have a feeling it's a recent line change... from what I can tell my contractor called his local representative for the information he was giving me - so maybe it's not common knowledge.

From what I'm being told, the Evolution series is very particular about duct sizing - and my concern is that it's going to nitpick things to the point that we're always having to mess with something - or change some sensor that's slightly out of spec. Maybe that's a concern on the Preferred series, but I'm hoping there's a middle ground between the Cadiallac and the Chevy Cobalt... something kind of in the Buick range...

Heath

[workhc]

as a carrier dealer {same as bryant} if you install the 3 stage variable speed furnace, with the single speed heat pump,{one model under the 16 seer two speed }, matched with the proper indoor coil, that combination will qualify for the tax credit, regardless of evolution controller.keep in mind that furnace is only 94.7 % efficient in the horizontal position. i would spend the extra money and buy the evolution controller, you will not be sorry, there is nothing out there that even compares. also that system should be eligible for cool cash rebate beginning march first.

[billyex99]

Heath, I just went through this with Bryant. The hybrid Evolution system did not qualify although the furnace on its own will. Can someone explain why the H.P. doesn't qualify?

AHRI Certified Reference Number: 1409417 Date: 2/8/2010
Product: Split System: Heat Pump with Remote Outdoor Unit-Air-Source
Outdoor Unit Model Number: 286ANA036-B
Indoor Unit Model Number: CNPV*3621A**
Furnace Model Number: 355(A,C)AV042080
Manufacturer: BRYANT HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS
Trade/Brand name: EVOLUTION 16 PURON HP
Manufacturer responsible for the rating of this system combination is BRYANT HEATING AND COOLING
SYSTEMS
Rated as follows in accordance with AHRI Standard 210/240-2006 for Unitary Air-Conditioning and Air-Source
Heat Pump Equipment and subject to verification of rating accuracy by AHRI-sponsored, independent, third
party testing:
Cooling Capacity (Btuh): 33400
EER Rating (Cooling): 11.30
SEER Rating (Cooling): 14.50
Heating Capacity(Btuh) @ 47 F: 32600
Region IV HSPF Rating (Heating): 8.30
Heating Capacity(Btuh) @ 17 F: 18800

[workhc]

heat pump must be 15 seer, 12.5 eer, and 8.5 hspf

[mwjhvac]

Just cause the evolution system will not let you use your duct work does not mean you can use a non communicating system with a ecm blower with the duct work. The evolution won't let it cause it tells you. Any combo with a ecm blower will be bad with the same duct work you just won't know it till it's to late. (ecm= Variable speed) Make sure no matter what system you buy the contractor checks with manual D.

[beavercreekhc]

i'm a bryant dealer and i do like the preferred system a lot. they will qualify for tax credits aswell.. the 286ana that you say won't qualify, it's because it's an inactive number now. it still does qualify i have the ari # for it if you need it. bryant put a few a/c's and h/p's on inactive and brought in some new ones. the preferred series is evolution compatible aswell.

[PHRoberts]

i'm a bryant dealer and i do like the preferred system a lot. they will qualify for tax credits aswell.. the 286ana that you say won't qualify, it's because it's an inactive number now. it still does qualify i have the ari # for it if you need it. bryant put a few a/c's and h/p's on inactive and brought in some new ones. the preferred series is evolution compatible aswell.

As a Bryant Dealer, what equipment do you think would match what I'm looking for? I think the company I'm going to use does excellent work, but I'm not convinced that he's very creative when it comes to the various incentives involved.

Here's my current builder-installed system from when the house was built in 1997:

Furnace is a Carrier: 58RAV070-12.
Input BTU/Hr: 69,000. Output BTU/Hr: 56,000
The A/C Condensor is a 3 Ton Carrier: 38CKC036330

The home is a single story with a FROG that's on a second zone.

I am very interested in a dual fuel system, and would like a variable speed air handler to help with humidity in the summer and operate more quietly. Getting the federal tax credit is very desirable... I might as well get some benefit if I'm going to pay for it in higher taxes/interest rates/inflation for the rest of my life.

I would prefer not having to replace all of my ductwork, but it may be necessary. As far as I can tell I have big flex ducts feeding small ones in my attic.

The furnace is set up horizontal. Venting shouldn't be an issue... It's a couple of feet from the gable of the roof and going through vinyl siding.

I will also say I'm not dissatisfied with my current system comfort-wise. My concern is that it's not going to last much longer - I'm seeing lots of changeouts in the neighborhood - which was built out in a year or so, all by the same builder, all using similar equipment. I'm also wanting to reduce my utility bills. $300+ per month combined electricity and gas on a 2100 SF home seems a little excessive.

Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated!

Heath

[gailquilter]

I was told my ducts would need upgrading for a/c until I did HVAC-calc and found the A/c only needed to be 1/3 what they were trying to sell me.

[beavercreekhc]

if you were doing system for system and not calculating a new heat load than:
265ANA036000 H/P R-410A "Puron"
355CAV042080 Furnace or 353AAV is another good choice that will qualify
CNPVP4221ATA "N" Coil
FE4ANF003T00 << air handler if not using a furnace

all of these will qualify for a tax credit.. check with your dealer on these model #'s. the distributor should still have them in stock, not saying they will though. But they do have like systems out now with the other model #'s.