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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    94

    Cool More CO2 and Glycol Training

    Here we go again. I keep reading threads about CO2 and all of the mis-information out there on the subject of CO2. This is not a new refrigerant. If you use it as a low temperature secondary fluid the pressures are around 220-240 PSIG operating pressure. If you use it as a secondary medium temp fluid your operatng pressures are around 400-440 PSIG. AND dont forget its .50cents a lb. There are about 25 system using CO2 as a secondary low temp fluid in the USA. There is one Cascade system using low temp CO2/glycol medium tmep. And 2 systmes located in the south that use CO2 as a medium and low temp refrgerant None of these systems are used in transcritical operation. If you are really intrested in how these systems work, HP will be conducting training classes around the country. I will post all up comming classes for those who want to come. It is not a Sales class. See the infor on the upcomming classes in Atlanta in March. My opinon is Ammiona is also a future option for supermarkets. I start taking my first Ammiona class on Monday.


    Hill Phoenix is having an upcoming Regional Training Program in Atlanta GA. This class is geared to the service tech and the installers, our goal is to teach in an open format all things secondary (glycol and CO2). The training is open to anyone intrested in learning this new technology. The classes are as follows:
    March 16th 8:00-5:00 Sencondary glycol installation startup and troubleshooting. Great class for mech and tech


    March 17th 8:00 - 12:00 Geroge Fischer pipe (Plastic refrigeration pipe glycol only) This class will certifiy you in the installation of GF piping.

    March 17th 1:00 - 5:00 Compact Chiller Modules. Secondary system the use about 50 - 80 lb of HFC for the entire mediuim temp rack (Very Kool)

    March 18th 8:00 - 1:00 CO2 installlation, Startup, and Troubleshooting.

    If you mention that you saw this thread you will receive a 20% discount on the classes.

    To registor please contact debbie.jones@hillphoenix.com or rusty.walker@hillphoenix.com

    HP hats and screwdriver will be provided.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    509
    Quote Originally Posted by eng&tech View Post
    Here we go again. I keep reading threads about CO2 and all of the mis-information out there on the subject of CO2. This is not a new refrigerant. If you use it as a low temperature secondary fluid the pressures are around 220-240 PSIG operating pressure. If you use it as a secondary medium temp fluid your operatng pressures are around 400-440 PSIG. AND dont forget its .50cents a lb. There are about 25 system using CO2 as a secondary low temp fluid in the USA. There is one Cascade system using low temp CO2/glycol medium tmep. And 2 systmes located in the south that use CO2 as a medium and low temp refrgerant None of these systems are used in transcritical operation. If you are really intrested in how these systems work, HP will be conducting training classes around the country. I will post all up comming classes for those who want to come. It is not a Sales class. See the infor on the upcomming classes in Atlanta in March. My opinon is Ammiona is also a future option for supermarkets. I start taking my first Ammiona class on Monday.


    Hill Phoenix is having an upcoming Regional Training Program in Atlanta GA. This class is geared to the service tech and the installers, our goal is to teach in an open format all things secondary (glycol and CO2). The training is open to anyone intrested in learning this new technology. The classes are as follows:
    March 16th 8:00-5:00 Sencondary glycol installation startup and troubleshooting. Great class for mech and tech


    March 17th 8:00 - 12:00 Geroge Fischer pipe (Plastic refrigeration pipe glycol only) This class will certifiy you in the installation of GF piping.

    March 17th 1:00 - 5:00 Compact Chiller Modules. Secondary system the use about 50 - 80 lb of HFC for the entire mediuim temp rack (Very Kool)

    March 18th 8:00 - 1:00 CO2 installlation, Startup, and Troubleshooting.

    If you mention that you saw this thread you will receive a 20% discount on the classes.

    To registor please contact debbie.jones@hillphoenix.com or rusty.walker@hillphoenix.com

    HP hats and screwdriver will be provided.

    Thanks for the info I collect screwdrivers and hats.

    All jokes aside why do you think Amonia is going to be a popular refrigerant in supermarkets. are you talking about using Amonia in thw wharehouses or out on the salesfloor? I am skeptical that any chain would want to have an amonia store. Sounds like a law suit waiting to happen to me.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    61
    gas_n_go
    My thoughts are amonia will be used on the primary side and glycol as the secondary for medium and CO2 fluid as the secondary side for low temp.
    There are several such systems in the US already like this. Mainly warehouse use but would be vrey functional for the whole market.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    25,924
    Quote Originally Posted by FSE_ View Post
    gas_n_go
    My thoughts are amonia will be used on the primary side and glycol as the secondary for medium and CO2 fluid as the secondary side for low temp.
    There are several such systems in the US already like this. Mainly warehouse use but would be vrey functional for the whole market.
    Exactly the system that I am envisioning, too.

    This summer, I was talking to my local HP rep and made a comment to the effect of "when they ban HFCs, we're only going to be left with CO2 and Ammonia."

    He didn't say anything, but got this funny look like he knew something.

    As government regulations increase, Ammonia is THE alternative.

  5. #5
    Highly recommend this class. Not for beginners though. You have to thoroughly understand DX refrigeration, gas laws, liquid behavior, etc...
    If you really understand control strategies and energy penalties, the conversation gets fun.


    PS: Don't call the grey pipe PVC

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    61
    Although I have to say, now that I am involved with systems, on a small market scale, as in Europe, I have no issues with Transcritical CO2. And in self contained cases, there is no issue at all. IMHO

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    94

    Cool

    I have to agree with FSE, I think we use a small amount of Ammiona on the roof in a machnice house as the primary DX refrigerant, cooling etiher propalenye glycol for medium temp or CO2 can be used as a secondary medium temperature fluid with a pressure range between 400 - 500 psig. Then on the low temperature we can use CO2 in a cascade sytem, and condense the CO2 at 20 degrees still have a discharge pressure of ~ 400- 500 pounds. The ammiona charge would be small enough that you would not need an enginner on site.

    Now we have a system with NO HFC enviormentally benign, we have a refrigerant the cost .50 cents a pound. Everyone wins - the Customer, the contractors (Remodling store to meet GOV standers) OEMs (selling new equiment) and the planet!!

    AND for those of you who dont belive these changes are coming and its all just a fad, Go ahead contiune to do business as usual, but for me I'm going to learn all I can about this new technioligy, and if it happens and Im one of the few dudes who can work on HFC DX systems, secondary CO2 and glycol
    systems and AMMIONA!! I may finally get payed what I think I'm worth lolol

    Dont get me wrong I have no idea who is right in this envoirmental agruement I've read white papers and articals for both sides and I've dicide that I dont care who right!! There gold in the color green and we all need to make a little of it!!!!!!!!!!!

    Smilies,
    It was great having you in class your contrubution was appricated. I understand about the new pic, but I like the old one

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    25,924
    Eng&tech,

    You seem like a guy who has a finger on the up-and-coming technology.

    What is your take on the various non-refrigeration type of cooling systems like thermo-electric?

    Do you think it has a chance or is it pie-n-the-sky dreaming?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    94
    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    Eng&tech,

    You seem like a guy who has a finger on the up-and-coming technology.

    What is your take on the various non-refrigeration type of cooling systems like thermo-electric?

    Do you think it has a chance or is it pie-n-the-sky dreaming?
    Thermo-electric cooling - Peltier Effect- Google this for more info

    You heat one side of a electircal plate while cooling the other side. If you need to defrost or simple want to switch between heating and cooling just switch the polaraty the DC voltage.
    The thing about thermo-electric cooling right now is the modules are small and costly, but the technoiligy works, We see it in car seats the have the ability to heat and cool the driver or the passager. Also I belive Coleman has some coolers that you can plug into your cig lighter for camping or ball games to keep beer cool They work using a DC power, I could see them working in small under-the counter prep tables. Nothing large,

    There also seems to be growning intrest in Thermal-accostic cooling, I've just stated looking into that so I'm not sure how that works.

    I worked with a couple of guys and we built a small condensing unit that ran off a car battery( DC Power) it had a Danfoss Copressor used in marine appicaltions and we were able to keep temp in a small meat case for about 3days before the battery lost its charge. We ran out of money and stop testing it, our goal was to recharge the batterys with solar power but we never got that far. ANyone want to invest

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    61

    Acoustic

    Don't forget about Acoustic refrigeration! But again, small scale and not practical at this time

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Cochrane, AB
    Posts
    622
    Quote Originally Posted by eng&tech View Post
    I have to agree with FSE, I think we use a small amount of Ammiona on the roof in a machnice house as the primary DX refrigerant, cooling etiher propalenye glycol for medium temp or CO2 can be used as a secondary medium temperature fluid with a pressure range between 400 - 500 psig. Then on the low temperature we can use CO2 in a cascade sytem, and condense the CO2 at 20 degrees still have a discharge pressure of ~ 400- 500 pounds. The ammiona charge would be small enough that you would not need an enginner on site.

    Now we have a system with NO HFC enviormentally benign, we have a refrigerant the cost .50 cents a pound. Everyone wins - the Customer, the contractors (Remodling store to meet GOV standers) OEMs (selling new equiment) and the planet!!

    AND for those of you who dont belive these changes are coming and its all just a fad, Go ahead contiune to do business as usual, but for me I'm going to learn all I can about this new technioligy, and if it happens and Im one of the few dudes who can work on HFC DX systems, secondary CO2 and glycol
    systems and AMMIONA!! I may finally get payed what I think I'm worth lolol

    Dont get me wrong I have no idea who is right in this envoirmental agruement I've read white papers and articals for both sides and I've dicide that I dont care who right!! There gold in the color green and we all need to make a little of it!!!!!!!!!!!

    Smilies,
    It was great having you in class your contrubution was appricated. I understand about the new pic, but I like the old one
    Sweet! Back to open-drive compressors. Unless someone decides to build one with stainless steel windings.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    7,326
    I like the idea of seeing ammonia on a more regular basis, but i think there will be hurdles in bringing it to the mass market. First, there are issues with getting approval in local government due to lack of understanding, and perceived dangers in the event of a release. Second, its generally more costly for initial installation due to material requirements, socket weld steel pipe in lieu of copper tubing, etc. Overall, the ammonia systems we see are generally used for ice rink applications, with propylene as a secondary refrigerant. These are much more efficient than r22, and generally less issue to service, except if there is some issue with high discharge superheat which causes plant issues, specifically with oil seperators. To me, its kinda old time refrigeration, and i would love to see more of it. as far as co2, there are systems using that already in place for comfort cooling and server cooling.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    94

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by flange View Post
    I like the idea of seeing ammonia on a more regular basis, but i think there will be hurdles in bringing it to the mass market. First, there are issues with getting approval in local government due to lack of understanding, and perceived dangers in the event of a release. Second, its generally more costly for initial installation due to material requirements, socket weld steel pipe in lieu of copper tubing, etc. Overall, the ammonia systems we see are generally used for ice rink applications, with propylene as a secondary refrigerant. These are much more efficient than r22, and generally less issue to service, except if there is some issue with high discharge superheat which causes plant issues, specifically with oil seperators. To me, its kinda old time refrigeration, and i would love to see more of it. as far as co2, there are systems using that already in place for comfort cooling and server cooling.
    I agree there are some hurdles, when we talk about ammonia. But I think they can be overcome. For one the ammioia portion would be factory built and welded. The contractor would install copper or ABS pipe form the machine house to the cases in the store. The important part of this would be to keep the ammionia on the roof and away customer in the store.With the secondary fluid (gylcol or CO2) going into the cases. Education would be key not only of the techs and the installers but for the insecptors and the customers. The amonut of ammonia would be very small, but I think the biggest problem is the precived safety issues and Im talking about contractors and techs. They are already talking about a phase down of HFC's (artical in "Refrigeration News")As far as gylcol systems in the Supermarkets there are over 600 system in use right now and the stores that use them love the reduce maintenace. There are many CO2 system operating in supermarkets today and I think that number will only grow.

    And remember if we end up with ammiona in supermarkets it will be the goverment that pushes in that direction.

    I'm still waiting for someone to come up with the undipulted data that tells us Global Warming is not true, polar bears are not wearing swimsuits, and it has all been a bad dream.

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