Better Than Geo - VRV

[Steve Cornish]

The primary issue in discussing GEO versus VRV is that the same or better efficiencies can be acheived with air cooled condensers thus eliminating the upfront and maintenance cost associated with Geothermal. Daikin does have VRV systems that are working with geothermal condensing systems. The efficiencies of this system are very high. It then becomes a return on investment question. With standard WSHP versus geothermal there is enough of an energy savings to justify the additional cost of installing and maintaining a geothermal system. Can the cost of adding geothermal to a VRV system be justified? That all depends on the geographical location, the installation cost, and the energy cost. If you have low energy cost like we do in the St. Louis area $0.07/kwh it becomes more difficult to justify the cost differential. Other areas like California at $0.22/kwh would be easier to justify. Also using cooling ponds instead of wells will lower the cost. Also some customers want the most energy efficient product available and are willing to pay more for the system to reduce their impact on the environment.

[tedkidd]

The primary issue in discussing GEO versus VRV is that the same or better efficiencies can be acheived with air cooled condensers thus eliminating the upfront and maintenance cost associated with Geothermal. ...

It then becomes a return on investment question.

Guess I'll try explaining this another way.

Clearly there are variables of home tightness and insulation effectiveness, alternative energy sources and cost, and scale that all come into play. Generally the two largest factors determining Geo's return on incremental investment are:

1. heating and cooling load (house size - geo has a fair base capital investment that a small house is unlikely to overcome)
2. alternative energy source cost (Nat Gas = looong payback no matter what size house)

Still, the argument should not be geo vs vrv because they are not apples to apples. Geo can utilize vrv so it is really a nonsensical argument. The type of compressor or "refrigerant" technology should be the same in both technologies in order to get an accurate measure of the incremental cost/benefit of going to ground.

The analysis is geo vs air source. Vrv may be the best current technology, the efficiency of which makes the added capital of the geo argument harder to make.

[mo geo man]

All very good arguments and I agree they are apples and oranges, loads and insulation are key. Utility costs are the biggest factor in payback. I guess what I have been trying to compare is the vrv cost to produce 100,000 BTU. We use this as our benchmark when comparing gas, oil, air source, dual fuel and geo so when a customer askes it is black and white to produce 100,000 BTU for 1 hour ( a therm ) it costs x.

[crmont]

The latest technology Variable Refrigerant Volume systems have many advantages over Geothermal heat pumps. VRV is also a heat pump system that uses energy recovery to provide the highest energy efficiency on the market. The advantages of VRV are:

1. Highest energy efficiency on the market.
2. Low installation cost. No wells to drill. Very easy to install.
3. Low maintenance cost. No pumping equipment to maintain.
4. Operates below 0 degrees F in the heating mode.
5. The system requires no special training for maintenance. Any trained HVAC technician can maintain the system.
6. The room units are extremely quiet.

If you want to know more check out Daikin's website at [url]Daikin is the number two manufacturer of HVAC equipment in the world. They are the parent company of McQuay International.

Steve;

I have some questions about using the vrv-w series for a large project. Could you PM me or respond to this thread? Thanks.

[HeyBob]

Steve, I have left the rest of the posts here, your first post has been edited. Please remember that unless you purchase an ad, you can't advertise, which is what your fist post essentially was.

[Calvinw]

I was IGSHP certified and put in one loop and strained my shoulder badly sealing well holes with Bentonite and fusing joints. I spent time recooping with visits to the doctor. I didn't enjoy the mud to much either. I have also put in Daikin systems. From an installation point of view instead of efficiency, I like the air to air VRV systems. I have also serviced both extensively. Daikin is much more specialized.

[gillianreynolds]

I went to class to learn what we needed to know to bid a local project, the equipment cost was more than the engineers buget for the entire mechanical part of the contract. On original bid only one vendor could supply numbers. I like the theory and am excited that it may be coming to geo. But it doesn,t have a proven trac record, we have no data to truley compare it to geo. Oh did anyone forget our country is in turmoil and Daiken or Sanyo are both made in JAPAN!!!

You are right,

I agree with you.

[gillianreynolds]

You are right,

I agree with you.

Thanks
oostende hotels near train station

[Some Dude]

I went to class to learn what we needed to know to bid a local project, the equipment cost was more than the engineers buget for the entire mechanical part of the contract. On original bid only one vendor could supply numbers. I like the theory and am excited that it may be coming to geo. But it doesn,t have a proven trac record, we have no data to truley compare it to geo. Oh did anyone forget our country is in turmoil and Daiken or Sanyo are both made in JAPAN!!!

Very , very expensive, just wait, some other Japanese company will come out with another version then the price will plummet.

Better than geo, i think not, every ah has to have its own liq/suct line, electric and drain. Plus to repair them, ya rip them off the wall and replace them.

When they are a third of their price and actually worth the money i may consider it.
I also believe they are everything thats wrong with our trade, plastic, junk that maint people will work on instead of installing a real piece of equipment.

[mo geo man]

I haven't been on in a while, thanks for all the kind posts in agreement. I still have no savings proof on vrv, there is supposed to be a whole floor of vrv and a floor of geo in the new ASHRAE building in the DC area with the sole purpose of proving the savings, and yet we see nothing. I don't have to see geo savings I see my customers on the street stopping to tell me how comfotable they are first then they tell me about their utility savings. There is a down side..... If put in right the routine service is minimal so make sure you have a backup plan for less service if you do more geo!

[19characterusername]

There was an article in ashrae journal a few months back comparing boiler tower, boiler chiller, vrf air source, and geothermal for facade dominated (basically residential) building types. Geothermal was slightly better than vrf in some climates, but not by much. Boiler tower heat pump systems were shown to be the dogs they are. The interesting conclusion was that boiler chiller does not make sense for facade dominated buildings due to heating COP of .95 from a condensing boiler vs 2.5 to 3 for an air source machine at design conditions.

[ga-hvac-tech]

There was an article in ashrae journal a few months back comparing boiler tower, boiler chiller, vrf air source, and geothermal for facade dominated (basically residential) building types. Geothermal was slightly better than vrf in some climates, but not by much. Boiler tower heat pump systems were shown to be the dogs they are. The interesting conclusion was that boiler chiller does not make sense for facade dominated buildings due to heating COP of .95 from a condensing boiler vs 2.5 to 3 for an air source machine at design conditions.

Article sounds interesting...

Was the comparison done by operating efficiency, or by investment vs payback?

And could you post a rough idea of the climates geo works better and not good in... THX.

[19characterusername]

Found the article.

http://bookstore.ashrae.biz/journal/...2-20111003.pdf