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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    31
    I can get those and maybe even some pics monday. I can also show your the distance we are talking between the component.

    Thanks.

    And I totally understand the reason alcohol is consumed now.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Dixiana, AL
    Posts
    2,610
    [QUOTE=w8tn4rtmnt;5893452
    The only other thing is operating both pumps at once should not be hapening if they are truly in parallel. 2 pumps in parallel operating together are not moving more water.[/QUOTE]

    That's a mighty large statement to make about a system when you have no knowledge of it's design criteria or intent. What exactly is this based on?

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    24
    Not really. I said if they are TRUELY parallel, both pumps are the same size, of equal hp, and equal impeller size. I don't think thats out of line. I'm basing it off of what he's told me. I have no clue what reality is. Regardless of what I said, he's got a long ways to go here. What I've done is help him get the information to guide him toward plotting his info on a pump curve and finding his actual pump GPM's. Once he has that ( as you yourself stated ) he needs to find out how many GPM'S he's supposed to be pumping into whatever object he's removing heat from. I figure that'll also tell us if he needs one or two pumps. Chances are, based on what he's stated, one's redundant. But again, I'm not there, so I can't be certain. I've told him we need more info to help. If I'm wrong in any way feel free to correct me. JMHO! Thanks!

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    philadelphia pa
    Posts
    171
    Matt, Have you calculated your tonnage of the wshp's? Are the hoa switches on the pumps starters in hand or auto? If in hand turn them to auto. see if one of the pumps goes off. If it does you may have lead lag or alt. seq. Also, if they were in hand and you put them in auto and one pump shut down. Wait a few mins. and shut the other one down and see if the other one comes on. This will give you a good idea of how your atc system is controlling. As stated plot your pumps and see where your at.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    31
    Here is what I have found.

    D.P. 45 psi
    Imp. Size. 9"
    I also found that the Heat Exchangers are rated at 1250 gpm each and there are 2.
    Pump curve chart available and indicates that the NPSH is 20 for 60hp
    Here is the link for it.

    http://www.aurorapump.com/pdf/340_36...es_340_360.pdf

    I am still working on TDH and Suction Pressure. Have to get a gauge that measures vacuum I can adapt to 1/2" for suction pressure. I did pull the gauge and cracked the valve and it sucked some air so I closed it. And not sure where I can tap in a flow meter for GPM.

    As far as the WSHP's... thats tricky. They are resident owned and I do not have access to them. We just supply condensed water. As far as the HOA switches, they are all in Auto and I have not had access to the Siemens Apogee system yet. The management has been less than helpful in that regard and apparently I need to have a Siemens guy out to show me. But the is a MEC controller that does control the pumps.

    Keep in mind. My throttling valves are not controlled by the Apogee system. They are manual and at 90% closed.

    Matt

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    24
    Matt,

    Please don't take offense to this, but I think you may need the help of a mechanical contractor. I appreciate your willingness to jump in and go looking for problems, but I think you need more help than can be provided here. I don't personally believe that you can teach someone how to plot a pump on a curve in a forum. Based on what you've stated, I think you should maybe look for some help on a local level, such as a mechanical contractor. Sorry man, but I'm out.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    31
    Well I would like to thanks everyone for understanding my situation and asking me more questions that help me side track from my original problem... Cavitation. I ended up running one pump at a time and opening my throttling valves back up to about 80 percent. No more noise in the impeller housing and suction pressure is about 22 psi.

    Yeah I guess it was too much for me to handle and I will just go back to my rolodex to run my stuff.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Dixiana, AL
    Posts
    2,610
    Quote Originally Posted by mattinorange View Post
    Well I would like to thanks everyone for understanding my situation and asking me more questions that help me side track from my original problem... Cavitation. I ended up running one pump at a time and opening my throttling valves back up to about 80 percent. No more noise in the impeller housing and suction pressure is about 22 psi.

    Yeah I guess it was too much for me to handle and I will just go back to my rolodex to run my stuff.
    If you were able to fix the problem with no assistance, why'd you ask for help in the first place? Responses like this are the reason that people like me want to know who they're talking to before offering any suggestions, and you would do well to remember that the responses are 90% of the time just that -suggestions. We're not on site with you, and you're asking for opinions from literally hundreds of different people about a problem that has no bearing on their well-being. They're simply trying to help. Why? Because you asked. You want to get a holier than thou attitude and make smart remarks, go do it somewhere else....

    And by the way, if the vertical rise is only about 2 feet or so from pump inlet to water level in the tower basin (I believe that's close to what you said), you better go back and look at your pump suction pressure again. If you have 22 psig at inlet, that's some of the heaviest water I've ever heard about. Maybe that was the problem all along - the water in Orange Co., Ca. is heavier than elsewhere in the world...................

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    31
    Maybe I came across wrong. There was no sarcasm. It was meant to be humble. I called out a pump specialist and he gave me his suggestions. Note I never mentioned the cavitation until my last post. Apparently that was my issue also.

    The only sarcasm that was implied was at my expense. Maybe seeing the situation helped him more than it has in this forum.

    As far as the water being heavier in So cal... not sure it was needed, but the fact remains that I have 22 psi on my suction gauge. I am just glad that my unrecognized cavitation is gone and that I wont be replacing a pump impeller soon.

    Matt

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    24
    I was afraid this would happen. Look man, I was trying to help! Unfortunately there comes a point in this whole thing where I can do nothing more. The questions I asked are questions directly relative to what you were telling me. I can only steer so much. Understanding how hydronics really work is something that is learned in time. With hydronics, you could do some damage really fast or get yourself into a pickle before you know it, trust me, I've seen it happen. The next thing is that if I tell someone something that gets misinterpreted, then they come on here headhunting. I'm not gonna overextend myself, I'm just looking for people with a common interest and an opportunity to learn a few things in the process. One thing I'd suggest is going to the Bell and Gossett website. On there you will find a little piece of literature that is pretty helpful for people learning hydronics (but it's just a start). It's called "How hydronics really work". Trust me this is not sarcasm or a joke, but a serious piece of literature, and an interesting one at that! Best of luck man!

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Marco Island, Fl
    Posts
    729
    After reveiwing his first post, I'll bet his triple duty valve had to be installed improperly on the suction inlet side.
    I was thinking that it is next to impossible to cavitate a pump when it is throttled down 90%. I never thought until now he could have been throttling the pump inlet.
    If he turned off one pump, opened the valve, and the suction went up, this would be the only explanation. If the valve was on the discharge outlet, the suction would have went down.

    Ditto on the B&G website. I have the old volumes from my brother back in the early '70s. Pumps still work the same!

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    1,583
    heat exchangers are built to order according to a design spec. Find the number for the company and call them with the serial number and you will get all the specs, gpm, temp splits on both sides of the exhanger. The gpm on the open loop side is exactly what your pump needs to put out, you can set that with the pump curve and your pressure delta acorss the pump housing.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    31
    Okay... lets get this straight. You guys couldn't help me... and that is okay. I am fine with it, seriously. I made a joke about myself and needing a rolodex to do my job (joke at my expense) and now everyone is butthurt?

    You guys were leading me in the right direction for the information I gave you. The guy I called out just had the advantage because he could see the layout and everything working together.

    As far as the outcome of this... I may end up subpoena'd in the lawsuit to the developer that installed pumps way too big for the application. I have 2 different contractors preparing more or less identical reports stating that the cooling tower elevation is too low in relation to oversized pumps. They are also questioning the heat exchangers. This is going to be a nightmare. I also found that they have replaced the triple duty valves 3 times in the past 2 years. And another company tried to stop the installation of oversized pumps and even gave an option for drives due to the excess energy waste and size of the pumps. This is going to be a legal and political nightmare and my name is all over it now. I am going in a different industry after this one.

    But I do thank you for your input and your time. no offense should be taken.

    Matt

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