NATE.....yes or no...just vote.....that's all.....2 questions..

[sfry]

no-enless there is a hands on field portion of the test(we work on equipment, 3 dementional, not a one dementional peice of paper)
yes(nate themselves, and people wasting money advertising it)
no, taking it this spring

yes i would like a ufo ride as long as there is no probing or disecting of me

[appltech1]

no/notta/get out of here! I dont think we need more control guidelines. Enforse the ones we have. Try that.

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by Reak
Is it fair to say that the people who have taken the test support it and approve it and the people who have not taken the test do not like it?

Thanks
REAK

No, I don't really think that is a fair statement. I'm certain that there are varying opinions from both groups. It's not really about "liking" it or not.

I would think that MOST who have taken and passed it approve of it, but I'm certain that there are some that found it disappointing in some fashion.

I'm also certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, in fact, that there are many who have not taken the test(s), but look forward to taking them.

I, and many many others in this industry do not fall into either category.

That is the fairest assumption that I feel we can work with on this subject.

[hvac/r-ia]

I don't much go for the nate test or the cm, cms testing other then for rookies and new guys breaking into the business, it gives them their first real badge of a higher level if you will.

HOWEVER if you would like to really take a challanging test go take the Block test from the early 80's and -90's for your masters, but now you can still take your jounerymans through them (if you have enough hours in the field/verified) and they offer a test that tells you that just perhaps you might know something if you pass... should it be required...absolutley not should it be desired absolutley so.....by the way its called Experior now.

[Edited by hvac/r-ia on 03-25-2004 at 09:19 PM]

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by hvac/r-ia
I don't much go for the nate test or the cm, cms testing other then for rookies and new guys breaking into the business, it gives them their first real badge of a higher level if you will.

HOWEVER if you would like to really take a challanging test go take the Block test from the early 80's and -90's for your masters, but now you can still take your jounerymans through them (if you have enough hours in the field/verified) and they offer a test that tells you that just perhaps you might know something if you pass... should it be required...absolutley not should it be desired absolutley so.....by the way its called Experior now.

[Edited by hvac/r-ia on 03-25-2004 at 09:19 PM]

This thread, and the "other" NATE threads have nothing at all to do with contractor licensing, or Experior testing. That type of testing has more to do with codes and business practices than it does with trade knowledge, anyway.

I don't know of any rookies at all that have successfully passed a CMS test, BTW.

[hvac/r-ia]

well codensating dave that just shows you have never taken the test and are as usal spouting propaganda without fact,,,
the test is very in depth about trade ,practice, code and pipe sizing, manual j, duct sizing, boilers, refrigeration,steam, hot water, comfort cooling, codes, welding. pipefitting, epa,umc, osha, shall i go on...

And yes my wife took the nate test and passed it..Im sorry does that bother you that a person never being in the field has passed your test?

[R12rules]

Mega-Dittos ... I agree with this.

Originally posted by koldenhott

Originally posted by Diceman
Do you think Nate should be enforced at all, somehow??

NO! The keyword is "enforced". Don't want the govt or anyone other than my employer dictating a certification.

-Is it really helping anyone other than those making money off it.

YES! The whole HVACR industry benefits by certification whether it be NATE, HVAC Excellence, or RSES CM/CMS.
The bar is raised for everyone (and yes, there are many techs without certification that can work circles around those with the patches)
Yes, the organizations (NATE, ESCO, and RSES) make money on the materials and tests. Contractors also make money
by raising their companies requirements and profits.

IMHO...

[R12rules]

Originally posted by hvac/r-ia
well codensating dave that just shows you have never taken the test and are as usal spouting propaganda without fact,,,
the test is very in depth about trade ,practice, code and pipe sizing, manual j, duct sizing, boilers, refrigeration,steam, hot water, comfort cooling, codes, welding. pipefitting, epa,umc, osha, shall i go on...

And yes my wife took the nate test and passed it..Im sorry does that bother you that a person never being in the field has passed your test?

How long you been here? Long enough to go spoutin' off about someone you dont EVEN know?

I trust your knowledge of the trade is more in depth than your responses to some of the members here...


Take it easy ....we dont bite. And the guys who do, have all had their shots.

[mccool]

1. No opinion
2. No opinion
We don't have NATE.

That NATE post sure got alot of attention though, maybe Dice put this one up to divert attention as it went to 24 pages in 14 days, even the infamous 9mm thread took 10 months to get there

[R12rules]

Originally posted by hvac/r-ia
I don't much go for the nate test or the cm, cms testing other then for rookies and new guys breaking into the business, it gives them their first real badge of a higher level if you will.
[Edited by hvac/r-ia on 03-25-2004 at 09:19 PM]

The only way a "rookie" would pass a CM CMS test is if he cheated. Or ... had been coached and posessed a photographic memory, and was openly allowed to cheat.



Say ... you never worked in Garden Grove did you ...

[R12rules]

Originally posted by lmtd


[/B]

Ditto!

I am not sure a rookie will get past the NATE test either and I consider it far easier than the RSES test. [/B][/QUOTE]

I have attended RSES meetings over the years. I have even met some guys who were CM or CMS.

I have inpsected the books for the training. I have a tremendous amount of respect for RSES and anything, everything they do.

They're a really fine group. Who the heck is Nate anyway? I never met the man.

[little joe]

YeS

Yes

[Diceman]

It seems the vast majority of you guys, even Nate supporters, are not in favor of any kind of enforcement.
Right?
So other than bragging rights about an exam that some guys wife even passed, what good is it?
Anyway, back to voting.

[DeltaT]

So is he saying his wife passed cause the test is really hard and she is smart? Or that his wife is really dumb and the test is easy?

Anyway, so much for yes's and no's.

[thehumid1]

1) NO. EPA COPS THEN NATE COPS FUGGABOUTIT!

2.) YES, THINGS THAT DON'T MAKE MONEY FOLD. OF COURSE, THEY AREN'T REALLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY IT'S JUST A BYPRODUCT OF THEIR DESIRE TO EDUCATE THOSE ENGAGED IN THE TRADE.

[Andy Schoen]

Originally posted by Diceman
It seems the vast majority of you guys, even Nate supporters, are not in favor of any kind of enforcement.
Right?

Dice, if you look at how the ASE certification program works in the automotive industry, you'll understand where NATE plans to go with its program. NATE intends to be the ASE of the hvac industry.

ASE is a voluntary certification... you do not have to be ASE certified to be an auto mechanic. But there are several hundred thousand auto mechanics in the U.S. that are ASE certified, which attests to the importance placed on this certification. As I recall, a mechanic must pass one of a number of available exams, and have 2 years worth of field experience to be ASE certified. And ASE certification isn't a life long certification, one must recertify every 5 years.

Some auto manufacturers, if not all, have their own certifications. I believe GM's Mr. Goodwrench mechanics must have ASE certification before thay can earn GM's certifications.

[DeltaT]

"ASE is a voluntary certification... you do not have to be ASE certified to be an auto mechanic."

Herein lies the problem. I don't believe this innocent looking statement for a minute. Read all the previous statements of most of the nate proctors and you will see they will fall in line once nate have convinced some or all of the manufacturers that nate is a necessary thing.

[hvac/r-ia]

WOW...I must have touched a nerve lol...
OK yes my wife did pass the nate test and why?
Because she wanted to see if she had absorbed anything over the 20+ years she has been around my shop, does that mean its a easy test...depends on who you ask I guess, the criteria you listed for the block/experior testing is as of late ...if you had fully read the statement I reffered to the test of the 80's and early 90's in which it was an 8 hour test with 200+ questions you can refer to test # 406, 410, this ... again this is MY opinion,( by the way they did change the test to 100 questions BECAUSE people were not passing it, they didnt want to study that hard) and yes I do think my wife is smart, do I think she should have passed it...no not if it was designed to show case some of the BEST talent in this trade.

As far as how long I have been around this site...not to terribly long but guess what just because you have a zillion posts or replies doesn't make one a HVAC GURU it makes them opinionated or helpful depending on how you look at it, I feel I have been both to this site...so like it or not I have a right to my opinion and because this is OUR web site for posting OUR OPINIONS I think I'd like to stick with mine. inclosing I would like to say I have brought a few young entry level minds to this sight and I would like to just say that we ought to be careful about spewing our OPINON as fact because the younger techs rely on older and
wiser techs and take things and OPINIONS as gospel. Also in an earlier thread I did ask about a higher more respected authority on qualifying candidates I already have the ones mentiond here previously,they are good for me and me only. BUT as a group or an industry we should develop A TEST that all can agree on that truly shows EDUCATION and SKILL because a guy may learn alot from a book BUT until he has stubbed his toe a few times and learned or aquired the years of OJT he's still an unseasond worker in my opinion, and without a national( not nate or rses) program like this or something similar, how would we be able to raise the level of education or ranking...surely our method of time of service is not working, we might have a man out there running line sets for 20 years, what has he learned or advanced to?

[Edited by hvac/r-ia on 03-26-2004 at 06:46 PM]

[hvac/r-ia]

LMTD I am convinced that you are incaple of having a spirited discussion with out thinking you are the ultimate opinion on any subject,you actually are going to tell me that your (god of HVAC) have made a decision that I am lying about such a test and her passing, ok... fair enough that is your opinion, I will not share her number with you BUT there are folks on here who personally know me that will tell you what I say is truth about her passing the test. As far as the rest of this discussion I think I have answerd my opinion of nate,oh by the way LMTD what is your number for NATE?

[Andy Schoen]

Originally posted by DeltaT
"ASE is a voluntary certification... you do not have to be ASE certified to be an auto mechanic."

Herein lies the problem. I don't believe this innocent looking statement for a minute. Read all the previous statements of most of the nate proctors and you will see they will fall in line once nate have convinced some or all of the manufacturers that nate is a necessary thing.

DeltaT, are you referring to ASE here? NATE has nothing to do with ASE, other than the fact both provide certifications for their respective industries.

I am absolutely correct in stating both are voluntary certifications. That's not to say that an employer won't favor a job applicant with a certification versus one without. But the decision to get certified or not will rest with the individual. If the individual wants to go into business himself, have at it! He can then answer to himself and not worry about an employer favoring certified applicants versus those who are not.

What's this: "once nate have convinced some or all the the manufacturer's that nate is a necessary thing"? Hello... all the residential hvac manufacturers have representatives at NATE. All the residential hvac manufacturers support NATE. NATE doesn't need to convince the manufacturers of anything. They're already on board!

Your question should be: will all the manufacturers eventually agree to stop selling to folks who are not NATE certified? No. Won't happen. Period. I'm as certain of this as Elvis is dead.