NATE.....yes or no...just vote.....that's all.....2 questions..

[DeltaT]

Herein lies the attitude which is what most likely turns a lot of us off to nate- especially me.

"But if you can't pass a NATE test, hmmmm.... you shouldn't be doing service work.:

[HVAC Pro]

Originally posted by DeltaT
Herein lies the attitude which is what most likely turns a lot of us off to nate- especially me.

"But if you can't pass a NATE test, hmmmm.... you shouldn't be doing service work.:

Then exactly what kind of work would this entitle me? I've never had a problem acing most of the other "tests" that have come down the pike. It's just that I'm finally old enough and smart enough to know that when it quacks like a duck it most likely is one. Besides, my shirt sleeves are currently filled with silly little patches. Don't have room for any more.

[DeltaT]

lmtd
I hear you. And I fully agree that technicians should and need basic to advanced technical training before & during exposure to equipment in the field.

But this has never been my point. My point is that their is an underlying attitude by most of nate proponents of their agenda to make this educational source as "THE" way. And behind that lies a bunch of people just waiting to chomp at the bit of controlling who and who is not qualified.

And that is an ugly picture just waiting to be had. Still amazing me that "you", I speak in general terms here, can't see that. I think some do but side track us using a smoke screen with attempting to keep the focus on the benefits of education.

Ever hear of a circular arguement? This is what happens most of the time on these posts with owners/technicians concerns. I have yet to see most of the proponents of nate validate the many, many concerns shown here by owners/technicians.

So much for not getting into a discussion on this again.

[acmanko]

No, No, Yes.

[Andy Schoen]

Originally posted by DeltaT
My point is that their is an underlying attitude by most of nate proponents of their agenda to make this educational source as "THE" way. And behind that lies a bunch of people just waiting to chomp at the bit of controlling who and who is not qualified.

But somebody has to set the standards.

We can all agree that seasoned tech who knows what's going on hardly needs to take the NATE test to prove his competence. All I contend is such an indivdual should have no difficulties passing the NATE test.

I find it a bit amusing the complaints from individuals who have actually taken the NATE test. Let's say half of them complain it's too easy, and other tests such as the RSES CM test is a better gauge of competence.

And the rest say it's too "confusing". Hmmmmm... I'd be interested in the questions causing confusion. Probably the electrical questions.

But if someone asks the question: who should be defining the standards as to what an hvac service tech should know? I submit 4 choices, one correct answer:

A. The original equipment manufacturers
B. Stephen Hawking
C. George Clooney
D. Elvis Presley

[acmanko]

I change my vote, Yes, Yes and Yes. and the original equipment manufacturers have every right in the world to want certified techs, if they continue to warranty equipment.

[HVAC Pro]

Yeah I change mine too. No, No, No. What do I win.

[HVAC Pro]

Originally posted by acmanko
I change my vote, Yes, Yes and Yes. and the original equipment manufacturers have every right in the world to want certified techs, if they continue to warranty equipment.

When EM's stop selling to anyone with a checkbook I'll buy that argument. Until then carpe diem.

[DeltaT]

Andy
See, I agree with everyone of you when it comes to education of the masses in our field. We absolutely have no disagreement there as I have stated time and time again.

Here is what I say, shortly and as briefly as I can. Nate is not about education. It's about another layer of regulation.

You and the other well meaning, professional instructors focus on the educational part. All well and good. But I focus on and see what is waiting behind that demonstrated beneficial sales pitch of a front. Kind of like the Trojan horse thing.

It will turn into a form of regulation. I have no doubt.

[HVAC Pro]

Originally posted by DeltaT
It will turn into a form of regulation. I have no doubt.

I don't think it's that strong nor ever will be. The people in this industry who are counted on to support it are too busy getting things accomplished to sit around and be wooed by these people.

[DeltaT]

HVAC Pro
I hope you are right BUT every single contractor in Washington and Oregon State, not only in HVAC but all types and forms of maintenance to lighting companies, are now dealing with a nightmare of new laws that no body took seriously.

I now know of 2 small companies that have closed up because the owners were not able to comply with the requirements and costs.

I take this stuff very seriously. It's been my life and passion for a great many years and there are those who are out to benefit from us at our expense.

In certain counties of my state an owner/technician now needs up to 10 seperate licenses just to do HVAC. Think about that.

[ucp]

1.No
2.No

[Andy Schoen]

Originally posted by DeltaT
Andy
See, I agree with everyone of you when it comes to education of the masses in our field. We absolutely have no disagreement there as I have stated time and time again.

Here is what I say, shortly and as briefly as I can. Nate is not about education. It's about another layer of regulation.

You and the other well meaning, professional instructors focus on the educational part. All well and good. But I focus on and see what is waiting behind that demonstrated beneficial sales pitch of a front. Kind of like the Trojan horse thing.

It will turn into a form of regulation. I have no doubt.

My hope is that NATE certifications will become to the hvac industry what ASE certifications have become to the automotive industry.

I have no desire for the government, state or federal, to impose NATE certification... like we have with the EPA 608 and 609 regulations.

But if an hvac original equipment manufacturer wanted to use NATE as part of their qualifications for a dealership, I would think it to be a very good idea for our industry.

[DeltaT]

"My hope is that NATE certifications will become to the hvac industry what ASE certifications have become to the automotive industry.
But if an hvac original equipment manufacturer wanted to use NATE as part of their qualifications for a dealership, I would think it to be a very good idea for our industry."

I agree. If nate can become one of the greatest educational choices for this industry, that would be great.

Once again, I believe that is a hidden agenda for this to become a filtering and control program.

[aznrgmgr]

Do you think Nate should be enforced at all, somehow??

No, there should not be a enforced policy set by anyone at any level, we don't need anymore rules and regulations.

-Is it really helping anyone other than those making money off it.

YES!

Want a raise? What sets you apart from everyone else in your shop? Why should your boss give you a raise? Years of experience does NOT boost profit margins. How can you set yourself apart from everyone else in your shop?

Knowledge is power! No one can ever take it away from you. But that knowledge has to be applied in order for it to be effective. Once the knowledge is effective it produces bigger profit margins. If you produce bigger profit margins for your boss he should share the wealth with you. If your boss doesn't share the wealth, then FIRE your boss because he's not doing his job and find a boss that will!

If you had to make a hiring decision between a NATE technician and a none certified technician which would you pick? all other things being equal. I'll tell you what, if I had a NATE certified technician with 10 years experience and another non-certified technician with 20 years experience, I would hire the NATE certified technician! If I hired both, I would probably pay them about the same amount, possibly more to the NATE technician. Why? Because I can charge more for the NATE certified tech than the non-certified tech! That's the difference.

Making money is one thing bosses understand! If they have the potential to make more money based upon your knowledge base then by definition you are more valuable. But a boss should never pay a technician more than 1/3 of the rate charged to the customer (if they do pay more than 1/3, then the company will eventually go broke plan and simple).

The #1 reason why technicians can't get good wages is....because the companies can't raise the prices to their customers. If the companies raise the price, the customer will go somewhere else .... unless there is a compelling reason to stay, even with the price increase. That compelling reason is FAST, friendly, knowledgable service!

Therefore, every business should try to set itself apart from its competition. Customers and Contractors have been screeming for years about the less than knowledgable guys in OUR industry.

The customers will never ask for NATE certifed technicians until the contractors include NATE in the contractor's marketing and advertsing.

The contractors don't advertise their NATE benefits to their customers so the customers don't know the difference. Don't take my word for it, look in any phone book under A/C or Refer contractors and see how many advertize NATE or RSES (none)?

Now look at automotive repair. How many advertise ASE certified technicians (hundreds almost every one). Why? Because the auto repair shops know that the customers will not show up unless the auto mechs. are ASE certified. And guess what? ASE certified mechs. get paid more (on average) than non-ASE mechs. In this day and age, I will not take my car in for any type of service or repair unless it's done by an ASE cert. mech.

Baffles the sh*t out of me. These HVAC contractors could clean up the industry, increase their profit margins, keep customers for life and pass these gains down to their technicians, if they would only educate their customers on the benefits of NATE.

As a technician, when was the last time you educated your customer about the benefits of NATE? Something like: Here's my card, if you really liked the way I serviced your A/C unit today, the next time you need service, call and ask specifically for me because I'm a NATE certified technician and NATE certification makes all the difference.

It's not going to happen over night, but it will happen if we all get behind it! too long, have to go to bed. JMM

[HVAC Pro]

What the hell?

[Andy Schoen]

Now why can’t I be this lucid on this subject? Well done, aznrgmgr

When promoting your professionalism in the trade, it is not always sufficient to simply tell customers: “Trust me, I’ve been doing this for 20 years”.

That’s where voluntary certifications such as NATE and ASE come in. You’re telling your customers you have gone the extra mile.

I can appreciate why many in the trade would be suspicious of NATE, or any other exam claiming to certify hvac techs.

But NATE is the one certification backed by the hvac OEMs, and it is in the best position to determine what an hvac tech should know and be tested on.

[HVAC Pro]

Originally posted by Andy Schoen
When promoting your professionalism in the trade, it is not always sufficient to simply tell customers: “Trust me, I’ve been doing this for 20 years”.

Instead, it's "Trust me, I've only been doing this for six months, but guess what? I'm certified by Nate." My customers would ask me who the hell is Nate?

[NormChris]

Nobody with only six months experience is going to pass any of the NATE exams! Neither do many who have more than six years of experience.

[Andy Schoen]

Originally posted by HVAC Pro
Instead, it's "Trust me, I've only been doing this for six months, but guess what? I'm certified by Nate."

No one in this thread is discounting the value of experience.

The NATE exam is not designed for a newly minted hvac vo-tech student.

It is an easy sell to a customer that you have 10 years of experience, and have passed a certification exam supported by the hvac OEMs. For a competent hvac tech, the NATE test should be a slam-dunk. For the jack-leg, it will be a big problem.