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  1. #131
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
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    7,751
    HVAC Pro
    I hope you are right BUT every single contractor in Washington and Oregon State, not only in HVAC but all types and forms of maintenance to lighting companies, are now dealing with a nightmare of new laws that no body took seriously.

    I now know of 2 small companies that have closed up because the owners were not able to comply with the requirements and costs.

    I take this stuff very seriously. It's been my life and passion for a great many years and there are those who are out to benefit from us at our expense.

    In certain counties of my state an owner/technician now needs up to 10 seperate licenses just to do HVAC. Think about that.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  2. #132
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    161
    1.No
    2.No

  3. #133
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Dallas, TX
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    2,987
    Originally posted by DeltaT
    Andy
    See, I agree with everyone of you when it comes to education of the masses in our field. We absolutely have no disagreement there as I have stated time and time again.

    Here is what I say, shortly and as briefly as I can. Nate is not about education. It's about another layer of regulation.

    You and the other well meaning, professional instructors focus on the educational part. All well and good. But I focus on and see what is waiting behind that demonstrated beneficial sales pitch of a front. Kind of like the Trojan horse thing.

    It will turn into a form of regulation. I have no doubt.
    My hope is that NATE certifications will become to the hvac industry what ASE certifications have become to the automotive industry.

    I have no desire for the government, state or federal, to impose NATE certification... like we have with the EPA 608 and 609 regulations.

    But if an hvac original equipment manufacturer wanted to use NATE as part of their qualifications for a dealership, I would think it to be a very good idea for our industry.

  4. #134
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    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,751
    "My hope is that NATE certifications will become to the hvac industry what ASE certifications have become to the automotive industry.
    But if an hvac original equipment manufacturer wanted to use NATE as part of their qualifications for a dealership, I would think it to be a very good idea for our industry."

    I agree. If nate can become one of the greatest educational choices for this industry, that would be great.

    Once again, I believe that is a hidden agenda for this to become a filtering and control program.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  5. #135

    Thumbs up NATE Testing Yes or No

    Do you think Nate should be enforced at all, somehow??

    No, there should not be a enforced policy set by anyone at any level, we don't need anymore rules and regulations.

    -Is it really helping anyone other than those making money off it.

    YES!

    Want a raise? What sets you apart from everyone else in your shop? Why should your boss give you a raise? Years of experience does NOT boost profit margins. How can you set yourself apart from everyone else in your shop?

    Knowledge is power! No one can ever take it away from you. But that knowledge has to be applied in order for it to be effective. Once the knowledge is effective it produces bigger profit margins. If you produce bigger profit margins for your boss he should share the wealth with you. If your boss doesn't share the wealth, then FIRE your boss because he's not doing his job and find a boss that will!

    If you had to make a hiring decision between a NATE technician and a none certified technician which would you pick? all other things being equal. I'll tell you what, if I had a NATE certified technician with 10 years experience and another non-certified technician with 20 years experience, I would hire the NATE certified technician! If I hired both, I would probably pay them about the same amount, possibly more to the NATE technician. Why? Because I can charge more for the NATE certified tech than the non-certified tech! That's the difference.

    Making money is one thing bosses understand! If they have the potential to make more money based upon your knowledge base then by definition you are more valuable. But a boss should never pay a technician more than 1/3 of the rate charged to the customer (if they do pay more than 1/3, then the company will eventually go broke plan and simple).

    The #1 reason why technicians can't get good wages is....because the companies can't raise the prices to their customers. If the companies raise the price, the customer will go somewhere else .... unless there is a compelling reason to stay, even with the price increase. That compelling reason is FAST, friendly, knowledgable service!

    Therefore, every business should try to set itself apart from its competition. Customers and Contractors have been screeming for years about the less than knowledgable guys in OUR industry.

    The customers will never ask for NATE certifed technicians until the contractors include NATE in the contractor's marketing and advertsing.

    The contractors don't advertise their NATE benefits to their customers so the customers don't know the difference. Don't take my word for it, look in any phone book under A/C or Refer contractors and see how many advertize NATE or RSES (none)?

    Now look at automotive repair. How many advertise ASE certified technicians (hundreds almost every one). Why? Because the auto repair shops know that the customers will not show up unless the auto mechs. are ASE certified. And guess what? ASE certified mechs. get paid more (on average) than non-ASE mechs. In this day and age, I will not take my car in for any type of service or repair unless it's done by an ASE cert. mech.

    Baffles the sh*t out of me. These HVAC contractors could clean up the industry, increase their profit margins, keep customers for life and pass these gains down to their technicians, if they would only educate their customers on the benefits of NATE.

    As a technician, when was the last time you educated your customer about the benefits of NATE? Something like: Here's my card, if you really liked the way I serviced your A/C unit today, the next time you need service, call and ask specifically for me because I'm a NATE certified technician and NATE certification makes all the difference.

    It's not going to happen over night, but it will happen if we all get behind it! too long, have to go to bed. JMM

  6. #136
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia
    Posts
    4,264
    What the hell?
    There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action....Mark Twain

  7. #137
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    Apr 2002
    Location
    Dallas, TX
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    Now why can’t I be this lucid on this subject? Well done, aznrgmgr

    When promoting your professionalism in the trade, it is not always sufficient to simply tell customers: “Trust me, I’ve been doing this for 20 years”.

    That’s where voluntary certifications such as NATE and ASE come in. You’re telling your customers you have gone the extra mile.

    I can appreciate why many in the trade would be suspicious of NATE, or any other exam claiming to certify hvac techs.

    But NATE is the one certification backed by the hvac OEMs, and it is in the best position to determine what an hvac tech should know and be tested on.

  8. #138
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia
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    4,264
    Originally posted by Andy Schoen
    When promoting your professionalism in the trade, it is not always sufficient to simply tell customers: “Trust me, I’ve been doing this for 20 years”.

    Instead, it's "Trust me, I've only been doing this for six months, but guess what? I'm certified by Nate." My customers would ask me who the hell is Nate?
    There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action....Mark Twain

  9. #139
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
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    Nobody with only six months experience is going to pass any of the NATE exams! Neither do many who have more than six years of experience.

  10. #140
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    Apr 2002
    Location
    Dallas, TX
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    Originally posted by HVAC Pro
    Instead, it's "Trust me, I've only been doing this for six months, but guess what? I'm certified by Nate."
    No one in this thread is discounting the value of experience.

    The NATE exam is not designed for a newly minted hvac vo-tech student.

    It is an easy sell to a customer that you have 10 years of experience, and have passed a certification exam supported by the hvac OEMs. For a competent hvac tech, the NATE test should be a slam-dunk. For the jack-leg, it will be a big problem.

  11. #141

    Question

    Hey Andy!

    Thanks for bringing back some pretty great memories of Tech school! Haven't heard the term Jackleg in years.

    What does the term jackleg imply?

    My instructor at Denver Institute of Technology (DIT) AJ Owens used the term a lot. After school (1977) I signed up for the USAF, after basic training I went back home and placed a call to see how AJ was doing and found out that he had past away a few weeks earlier. Still really miss this guy! Shows you the value of educating your customers. Did you know that the most staunch supporters and advocates in any group are the ones that learned something. School and University alumni groups are some of the most staunch advocates because they learned something at the school.

    Sorry about that, back on course:
    I understand the definition of the term "jack leg" is someone who doesn't have what we might call the education (knowledge) skills in a particular "trade", but at the same time professes to be an expert.

    They use jacklegs (not the people kind) in the mining industry to support heavy drill motors that bore holes in the rock. A jackleg in this context is pretty useful and helpful in allowing the miner to get his job done safer and faster.

    So when we use the term jackleg in our industry, are we implying that a person without knowledge - who professes to be the expert - is helpful? I think not. In my humble and sole opinion and when I hear the term jackleg, I believe the implication is the jackleg's only purpose is at best, to supply support for the work but not actually knowledgeable enough to do the actual work itself.

    What do you think? JMM

  12. #142
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    forney texas
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    I think , if NATE was enforced as ASE is in auto repair this industry would be up the creek without a paddle.

  13. #143
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Dallas, TX
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    2,987
    Originally posted by aznrgmgr
    I understand the definition of the term "jack leg" is someone who doesn't have what we might call the education (knowledge) skills in a particular "trade", but at the same time professes to be an expert.
    aznrgmgr, this is an accurate definition of "jack-leg".

    Note that one must differentiate the "apprentice" from the "jack-leg".

    The apprentice is one being instructed by someone knowledgeable in the trade, whether or not the apprentice has graduated from a curriculum in that trade.

    For obvious reasons, proper schooling prior to an apprenticeship program allows one to achieve competence in the trade more easily.

    The jack-leg, unfortunately, does not have and will not seek such support.

    And I will continue to submit that passing the NATE exam is significant when evaluating a tech's competence in the hvac trade...

    [Edited by Andy Schoen on 06-20-2004 at 12:53 AM]

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