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  1. #1

    Waterfurnace Envision 5 ton question

    I'm not sure I can even ask this question on this forum, but I'm hoping somebody will take pity on me and have some advice. I made the huge mistake of having a Waterfurnace closed loop geothermal system (5 ton Envision) installed about two years ago. To be honest, I don't think the mistake was installing geo as much as it was the contractor we hired(A "GeoPro" contractor now out of business). At any rate, we've decided to deal with the system for one more winter and then replace it in the fall (cooling is actually pretty good) with a tried and true gas unit. Question is this, can I turn the second stage fan speed down below the recommended speed without causing the unit to fail? The biggest problem we have with this sytem is the noise (especially in second stage). The duct work in our house (a 1955 colonial cape) was not designed to handle the increased airflow required by geo, so we have constant "buzzing" on the return grills and loud airflow noise from the registers, especially in second stage.

    After the inital install, I hired another company and spent $4,000 more on ductwork changes that definately helped, but not enough to completely alleviate the issues in second stage. I cannot afford to spend any more $ trying to get this thing to work properly and if I did I feel like I'd be throwing good $ after bad. Thoughts? (and I understand if the moderator has to delete this thread)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Portland OR
    Posts
    2,030
    So it sounds like the issue is airflow not the loop temperatures or performance of the unit? When you say you want to replace it with a gas unit are you talking propane or natural gas? If you go from Geo to Propane be ready for a huge increase in energy costs.
    I certainly wouldn't say you made a mistake by installing a closed loop 5 ton envision system, the only mistake would be choosing a bad contractor but its not like you could have known that they were going out of business and a GeoPro is usually a WaterFurnace top contractor(My company is a geopro too).
    If you have buzzing on return air grills who is to say you won't have the noise with a new gas furnace? The noise is about airflow so if you have a new gas furnace with a 5 ton blower you will have the same issue and now you have made a mistake. If you went from oil or even an older furnace you might be in for a surprise with the new gas models because of how much more air they push to reach the efficiencies stated. I certainly understand not wanting to throw good money after bad but at this point I think you need to find a true professional who can make your system work as planned. I have installed almost 100 geo units in the past 3 years alone and not one has had any issues or complaints, so its not the equipment its the installer and luckily the install can still be fixed.
    Can you post your location so maybe somebody local can chime in?
    Check out my YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1 We have customer testimonials, product reviews and more!
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  3. #3
    SkyHeating. Thank you for replying to my post. I am in northern NJ. Unfortunately airflow is not the only issue. We also have issues with the temp of the air coming out of the registers, higher than expected electricity bills, a flooding basement where they drilled through the foundation to bring in the lines, a high pitched whine coming from the blower motor (I think the motor was damaged when the unit was first installed and return air was severely deficient - the unit was really laboring to keep up), etc. I hate to say it, but we are at the end of our rope and need to move on. I agree with you that a highly efficient gas unit may cause some of the same issues, but at least there are many, many reputable conventional system contractors around that can hopefully steer us in the right direction. There just aren't that many geo contractors around here.

    To help us maintain our sanity over the winter months, I lowered the fan speed in second stage below the recommended level (shaded area on chart on the door). Concerned this might damage the unit and cause it to fail during the coldest months. Thanks again for you reply and insight. Much appreciated.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Portland OR
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    2,030
    Yeah that sounds like a bad install. What were your electric bills before and after the installation vs your old heating source? Have you tried calling WaterFurnace at 888-929-2837 they have a customer line on that number. I would at least talk to WaterFurnace because they will do what they can to help you out if possible. It certainly sounds like it isn't their machine having an issue but they are very good at getting their machine to work as expected and can often have a territory manager come to the job site. I would at least try that before moving on with the system.
    Check out my YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1 We have customer testimonials, product reviews and more!
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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Portland OR
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    2,030
    Quote Originally Posted by jmarkham View Post
    WATERFURNACE customer service is terrible. I have an 8 year old Premier E series that has had a new "board" , coil, and ccmpressor in the first five years! My installer went out of business (probably for believing in the crap WATERFURNACE is selling these days) and now WATERFURNACE says I have no warranty because the dealer took a discount and "bought down" the warranty. What kind of shady, fraudulent dealing is this? A company will let a dealer take cash and leave their customer's out in the cold? GREAT BUSINESS PLAN GUYS. You have now lost my business forever.
    So your still here posting this stuff huh?
    YOU CHOSE WRONG, you had a bad installer that lied to you and bought down a warranty. What did WaterFurnace do, they sold a piece of equipment to a dealer, you chose the dealer and it was the wrong dealer, why is this Waterfurnaces fault? The MAJORITY of repairs on a system are due to a bad install. I install 50 pieces of WaterFurnace equipment per year and don't have as many issues as you have had, which tells me its installer, not manufacture issues. Why is waterfurnace at fault because your dealer took a discount on your equipment to give you a lesser warranty?

    Grow up, stop going to all the threads on this forum spouting improper information and take responsibility for your actions instead of blaming others.
    Check out my YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1 We have customer testimonials, product reviews and more!
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    7
    Improper information, huh? If you will do a google search on 'waterfurnace problems" you will find plenty of people with the same issues. Yes I had a dealer go out of business on me 8 years after the install and MAYBE he bought down the warranty and MAYBE he didn't. Who knows the truth. I don't know how the installer can cause a new "board" a new coil, and a new compressor to fail in the first five years! I am not the only one with these issues, so I feel sure that WATERFURNACE is aware of the quality issues with their equipment. Apparently the equipment they put out prior to 2000 was pretty good, now.... not so much. I have an air tight and watertight loop with plenty of distance. The pumps work fine. It is the unit that malfunctions!
    I also feel that it is just plain slimy for the company to even offer a 'buy down' price while advertising a 'standard 10 year warranty". Yeah, you installers may say that is 'standard practice' but that is BS. A reputable business would not condone that kinda stuff. I never asked for a discount, I was informed I had a 10 year warranty, and now that my dealer/installer is gone, WATERFURNACE is bailing out too. Think about it for a minute, GEOCOMFORT units used to be made by WATERFURNACE until even they grew tired of the 'quality issues' and bought their own manufacturing plant (hydron module). I know who is getting my business.

    Tell me to grow up punk but the truth is I don't want others to fall for this crap by another shady installer and manufacturer.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Westport, PA
    Posts
    10
    jmarkham,
    As I read your post, I can feel your pain. on Jan 23, 2014 my Waterfunace unit was diagnosed needing an air coil , 6 days after being replaced my compressor overheated, and caused the pex in the DWH section to rupture spewing 400 gallons of water. The installer said the compressor was fried, now I need a new compressor. My unit is 6.5 years old. Installed in 8/2007.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    7
    Sorry to hear that Rich. Skyheating acts like I am talking bad about his momma, but I am not the only one with WATERFURNACE problems. I MIGHT have gotten screwed by my contractor, but WATERFURNACE put out a crappy product in the first place. Or do all these installers somehow do something that causes the coils to fail just a few years down the road? What about the compressor problem as well?

    I hope you fare better than the canned response I got from the WATERFURNACE customer service dept. My advice is to skip the Better Business Bureau route if you're thinking about it. They are a waste of time... you file a complaint, they forward it to the company, and then ask if you're satisfied with the company's response. If not satisfied, they simply close the file on the complaint and state "customer unsatisfied". How's that for teeth? WF will block you from posting to their Facebook page and then round up their posse like SKYHEATING to badmouth you on here as well. This is really the only place to get the word out on their crappy equipment!

    Good luck Rich and look into GeoComfort/ Hydron Module/ TETCO. I can't seem to find near as many complaints about their product.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Westport, PA
    Posts
    10
    Thanks for the information, I was starting to think no one on this site was real or at least paying attention. Once again thanks for your time

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NORTHERN
    Posts
    991
    Quote Originally Posted by SkyHeating View Post
    So your still here posting...others.

    Sky has gone a round or to trying to just clean up my wording, ...
    But since WF and the GT industry, about 7 years after Hydro-Temp Corp AR

    there are so many dealers that have come and gone and they have sold 5 to 6 times that of the two oldest COLD TEMP 30f rated OEM's in GT sys.
    and
    I compete as well as fix WF and fill in where dealers leave you hanging

    YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT SITE FOR HELP:
    just sort out those who more so ask a lot of Q's first before letting the riches of their success brand them "expert" -
    I have seen to date 30 years of wrong loop info and connection info and water pressure info by 3rd gen well drillers and HVAC folks - and we all have--- that continues out of the even quite wealthy contractors, that I clean up and have with 27 dealers in the 80's and another OEM, 9 dealers and two engineers running about even poorly designing 400+ ton schools...

    So I am saying, there are some GT mannic-aggressives like sky and me and many others who don't get depressed, just get it done with WF who has very fine techs supporting when as I found 5 dealers quit on a customer in those air-coil failures 3 or 4 OEM's got caught by--- that I was called to go 90-min to repair and made friends at WF...
    (Air COil OEM's had a 90-DAY warranty on a bunch of those so the rules of WF will be as strict as any..and so far everywhere I got picky , they showed a dealer error)
    Water Furnace ALSO has in situations gone beyond , not for a yelling customer, but two that were only a bit as questionable and they did more than papered to do by their agreements.

    Same with Hydro-temp, just for a 6th or 7th time with just my rep group ( I no longer rep since 2011)-
    a coil for one, and a pair of compressors, very near their and way below dealer wholesale costs. Twice replaced entire units one 18 months out of warranty due to a questionable water coil issue, and no small ones: size "9" and size"7" both 4 function, Priority HW and Radiant , each had 4 full size heat exchangers and built-in bronze DHW 1/6hp pumps

    BUT YOU WILL NOT FIND THAT on the "res Hydro-Temp" complaints I have had long talks with website holders about why not post that extended caring, I have all the data....
    ... however, much work still needs to be done.
    CLOSED LOOP newer ratings are listed, but in numerical EER's Closed- is posted below OPEN LOOP EER's:

    http://www.energystar.gov/productfin...r=0&lastpage=1

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Palmyra, Missouri, United States
    Posts
    224
    Water furnace is amazing to deal with, install, and service. There technical support team is top notch. We are the largest water furnace dealer in the nation and we have excellent luck with our units. The E series unfortunately had a bristol compressor and we did experience some trouble with them. But, they came out with a Copeland scroll replacement that was much better. As far as the new units, they are extremely service friendly and have 10 year parts and labor warranty.

    Sent from my XT901 using Tapatalk

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Portland OR
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    2,030
    Quote Originally Posted by jmarkham View Post
    Sorry to hear that Rich. Skyheating acts like I am talking bad about his momma, but I am not the only one with WATERFURNACE problems. I MIGHT have gotten screwed by my contractor, but WATERFURNACE put out a crappy product in the first place. Or do all these installers somehow do something that causes the coils to fail just a few years down the road? What about the compressor problem as well?

    I hope you fare better than the canned response I got from the WATERFURNACE customer service dept. My advice is to skip the Better Business Bureau route if you're thinking about it. They are a waste of time... you file a complaint, they forward it to the company, and then ask if you're satisfied with the company's response. If not satisfied, they simply close the file on the complaint and state "customer unsatisfied". How's that for teeth? WF will block you from posting to their Facebook page and then round up their posse like SKYHEATING to badmouth you on here as well. This is really the only place to get the word out on their crappy equipment!

    Good luck Rich and look into GeoComfort/ Hydron Module/ TETCO. I can't seem to find near as many complaints about their product.
    My problem is that you are misconstruing the information. The point of this forum is to give out good information and when you go and spam all these threads you are taking away from other homeowners and the purpose of this forum. Did the E series have issues, yes, did other units of that time yes, but most of your issues are not with WaterFurnace they are with your installer and I am trying to show others where the difference is. It is not WaterFurnace being shady when somebody else bought down the warranty, you are blaming the wrong company and passing along false information so I am just showing future readers of this thread where the break in your truth occurs.
    Check out my YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1 We have customer testimonials, product reviews and more!
    Like us on FACEBOOK if you like our advice here!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    West Berlin, NJ
    Posts
    59
    Okay.. For arguments sake and to avoid further replies.
    Let's say you went to Joes ford dealership.
    Bought a new ford f150 pickup truck. That came standard with a 5 yr warranty.
    If your dealer (Joes) gave you a truck with only 2 yrs factory warranty to help keep the cost lower to you, but not tell you and have you believe you still had a 5 yr. Warranty.
    Who is to blame Ford, or Joes dealership???
    Dan Callahan
    www.CallahanWellDrilling.com
    Get "well educated" with us!

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