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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas via Chicago Area via Straight Up from There on Lake Superior
    Posts
    1,411
    Quote Originally Posted by dforster2 View Post
    I was surprised also. The federal 30% credit as well as a $300/ton rebate from my electric utility paid for most of the difference between geo and conventional. Otherwise it wouldn't have made sense to do it. If you want to see a comparison I guess you could Pm me, I don't know if that's allowed either. I could also give you the name of the installers, you're not that far away really.
    Would like to see it but no email address I can find in your Profile. Not sure if rules let you post it in a thread. You can always remove it after I catch it. I could get more specific on my cost analysis also.

    The $300/ton credit is nice but it doesn't exist in AR. You in an electric co-op? Even with that credit, my proposals were NOT even close to a high end DFHP.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    8
    K, I put my email in my profile.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    55
    Alex. I was wondering if you could explain the well instrumentation package you mentioned. My installer likes to install just honeywell controls but said he would check on the cost of installing the climatemaster thermostat w/ the sensors, etc.

    thanks.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    The midwest.
    Posts
    663
    Quote Originally Posted by jerryd_2008 View Post
    Wow, would I love to see your cost comparison, but alas this is forbotten on this site. Live in extreme NW Arkansas which has got to be close to NE Oklahoma. Considering your 7 tons of capacity, I am amazed! Maybe I should say flabbergasted! Did they throw in the wells for free?

    I got several 4 ton geo proposals, one was for Climate Master as I recall. Compared to a 17 SEER 4 ton DFHP after all credits and rebates for both approaches, the geo costs would have been 2-3 times the DFHP. I'm amazed!

    In addition, our electric rates are quite reasonable, so a 3 or 5 or 10 year payback would have been a pipe dream for me given our energy lifestyle.
    Jerryd.....I agree, I was surprised with the amount of A/C. I'm live in Iowa and we will size for heat. That's why our systems are so large. But 7 tons (I wasn't aware of such a size) seems excessive. Thank goodness for staging. people should ask for payback data. It's a easy program. Anyway, I would love to see the ductwork that will handle 7 tons.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    55
    I will post some links to a few pics of the ductwork. It took two guys two weeks to squeeze all the ductwork into my i-joists and catherdral ceilings. We used 14" i-joists & rafters just for ductwork purposes, the structural design only called for 9" joists.

    I may not have mentioned some other details, that it is 2 units, a 4 and 3 ton unit and that in addition to the 3200sqft I have a 24' cathedral ceiling taking up about 500sqft. As well as 10 large west facing windows. Also I have decided to eventually finish out a bonus room that is 500 sqft and we ran a return and supply to that room for the future expansion. So I am thinking it would be more equivalent to 4200 sqft for sizing purposes.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Kathleen GA
    Posts
    236
    Hi Deforster2:

    I do not have the Web Energy Logger (WEL) system but some of my online friends do. This website shows the WEL in operation: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ .

    FYI - He oversized his units to avoid ever using auxillary heat. It worked. To my knowledge neither unit has ever run in second stage due to the oversizing. Also, he has both units connected to the same groundloop.

    For more information on the WEL see this website: http://www.welserver.com/

    Let me know if you pursue it and if so how everything works out for you.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    The midwest.
    Posts
    663
    Quote Originally Posted by alex_in_fl View Post
    Hi Deforster2:

    I do not have the Web Energy Logger (WEL) system but some of my online friends do. This website shows the WEL in operation: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ .

    FYI - He oversized his units to avoid ever using auxillary heat. It worked. To my knowledge neither unit has ever run in second stage due to the oversizing. Also, he has both units connected to the same groundloop.

    For more information on the WEL see this website: http://www.welserver.com/

    Let me know if you pursue it and if so how everything works out for you.
    That's ignorant to size the units so they don't stage. Surely you didn't mean that?

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    55
    I wouldnt say that it's ignorant. The first stage on my units claim a SEER of 31.5 and the second stage claims 23. Probably has something to do with the extra ground loop since the first stage woldn't really need the 400'/ton of loop required by the full capacity of the unit, but I don't know much about geo yet, still learning.

    Anyway, I would think it would benefit you to oversize to operate 95% or more of the time in the first stage. Although it is probalby more expensive, my installer claimed it was just a few hundered more to go to a 3 ton from a 2 ton even with the extra few hundered feet of loop it required.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    The midwest.
    Posts
    663
    Quote Originally Posted by dforster2 View Post
    I wouldnt say that it's ignorant. The first stage on my units claim a SEER of 31.5 and the second stage claims 23. Probably has something to do with the extra ground loop since the first stage woldn't really need the 400'/ton of loop required by the full capacity of the unit, but I don't know much about geo yet, still learning.

    Anyway, I would think it would benefit you to oversize to operate 95% or more of the time in the first stage. Although it is probalby more expensive, my installer claimed it was just a few hundered more to go to a 3 ton from a 2 ton even with the extra few hundered feet of loop it required.
    Yes, we size our sysems for 93-95% of the maximum heating requirements. Then, during the cooling season it will run mostly on low A/C for dehumidification. Beautiful. Seer, EER or AFUE means nothing if the equipment isn't designed to running properly. You'll lose efficiency and more importantly comfort.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    55
    I'm not arguing, I don't even really know what I'm talking about. Just seemed that on a two stage system it would make sense to operate most of the time on the first stage. that would mean sizing the house to the first stage which is definitely more efficient than the 2nd stage. I always thought 2 stage was like having two units with the sencondary one not running unless the load demanded it. But maybe not..

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    The midwest.
    Posts
    663
    Quote Originally Posted by dforster2 View Post
    I'm not arguing, I don't even really know what I'm talking about. Just seemed that on a two stage system it would make sense to operate most of the time on the first stage. that would mean sizing the house to the first stage which is definitely more efficient than the 2nd stage. I always thought 2 stage was like having two units with the sencondary one not running unless the load demanded it. But maybe not..
    We are discussing, not arguing. Your HVAC guy, hopefully, knows what he's doing. One reason, not to dramatically over size, is because the existing ductwork is too small (generally) for the existing system let alone the increase air we need to move. When we increase the geothermal size to heat the house we may go from a 2.5 ton A/C system to a 4 ton 2-stage (I never sell single-stage) geothermal unit. That's an increase of 60% more airflow to unload and take in (return air). This is not always easy to acheive.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    55
    Ok, you understand a lot better than me. Hopefully he does too. Oh, this is all new construction so hopefully he sized the duct accodingly.

    Anyway, here are a few cool pics & some boring ones. I promised these earlier I need to take some better pics of the plenums & the ductwork since they have finished. There are two very large sheetmetal plenums for the main unit that I need to get some good pics of. It looks very cool. My installer used all sheetmetal in the attic where he didn't have to go through joists, etc. he used flex in the floors where he had to cut through i-joists, although those are mainly in conditioned space so I wasn't too concerned about flex being in there.

    The drillers just finished today w/ 4-325' wells. It took them two full days but I think they were wanting to do it in one day so they must have hit some rock or something.

    3ton T27 in attic
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2733/...f3593e2e1d.jpg

    Pumps
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2690/...a137344326.jpg

    Large duct in cathedral
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2803/...fdeed08c2a.jpg
    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4042/...ff816278_b.jpg


    some ductwork, not too exciting
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2751/...3b9a6f7583.jpg


    Well installation,they actually struck oil I think, cool maybe..
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2687/...5fab611f_b.jpg
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2791/...fc3425a9_b.jpg
    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/...e334ec7f_b.jpg
    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/...f7bfa5d3_b.jpg
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2484/...9c72e0cb_b.jpg
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2746/...bcd04383_b.jpg

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    The midwest.
    Posts
    663
    Quote Originally Posted by dforster2 View Post
    Ok, you understand a lot better than me. Hopefully he does too. Oh, this is all new construction so hopefully he sized the duct accodingly.

    Anyway, here are a few cool pics & some boring ones. I promised these earlier I need to take some better pics of the plenums & the ductwork since they have finished. There are two very large sheetmetal plenums for the main unit that I need to get some good pics of. It looks very cool. My installer used all sheetmetal in the attic where he didn't have to go through joists, etc. he used flex in the floors where he had to cut through i-joists, although those are mainly in conditioned space so I wasn't too concerned about flex being in there.

    The drillers just finished today w/ 4-325' wells. It took them two full days but I think they were wanting to do it in one day so they must have hit some rock or something.

    3ton T27 in attic
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2733/...f3593e2e1d.jpg

    Pumps
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2690/...a137344326.jpg

    Large duct in cathedral
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2803/...fdeed08c2a.jpg
    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4042/...ff816278_b.jpg


    some ductwork, not too exciting
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2751/...3b9a6f7583.jpg


    Well installation,they actually struck oil I think, cool maybe..
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2687/...5fab611f_b.jpg
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2791/...fc3425a9_b.jpg
    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/...e334ec7f_b.jpg
    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/...f7bfa5d3_b.jpg
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2484/...9c72e0cb_b.jpg
    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2746/...bcd04383_b.jpg
    What I could see of the supply, it looks good. I couldn't make out how the return air duct was run.

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