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  1. #1
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    FIN Stack (Fluid INtegration) Software 4.0

    Hello,

    Is anyone using the new BAS software, FIN Stack? We are looking to potentially adopt this software so I wanted to see if anyone else had first hand experience.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mchemerson View Post
    Hello,

    Is anyone using the new BAS software, FIN Stack? We are looking to potentially adopt this software so I wanted to see if anyone else had first hand experience.
    I am. I like that it is platform independent. One thing I will give them is that they don't care what hardware you put it on. Something I've always struggled with in my years of doing Tridium is being limited on resources with a JACE (even a JACE-7).

    At it's current build, I don't think that it is quite neck and neck with Niagara, but they are going on the right direction.

    We are using it in conjunction with JCI PC series controllers. We use the ML-100 embedded PC J2inn recommends (Intel quad core processor, 8GB RAM, 64GB SSD) and install PCT on it so all of the required software is right there.

    Works out really good.

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  4. #3
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    Wow, that is our major issue with using JACE's as well--the memory and resource issues we run into are a constant pain. That is a main reason we are looking into FIN. So you're saying that there would be no reason to run FIN software using JACEs since you can use more powerful hardware instead, right? But you just don't think that from a software point of view, that the tools/userability of FIN doesn't quite match the performance of Niagara yet?

    Have you switched completely or are you still using some combination of Niagara/JACE for your stations? How difficult was the transition from Niagara, I'm assuming FIN was worth any additional training required based on your positive feedback.


    I'm going to a FIN Stack evaluation class soon, so I am trying to get as much information as possible beforehand. really appreciate the knowledge, Synyster!

  5. #4
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    FIN has some good ideas, but as you will see in your class, as they come up with new ideas/features, etc., they just throw it in the mix, so the usability, although powerful, is not at all friendly in my opinion. Their tech guys whiz through all the fancy features, but unless you spend some time getting really use to it. And they have their own version of bql query, they call it folio if I remember right, again although powerful it is not at all well documented or intuitive.

    They have pretty powerful features like their tagging model that other guys are quickly adopting as well.

    my 2cents

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by amigo View Post
    They have pretty powerful features like their tagging model that other guys are quickly adopting as well.
    This is one thing that really blows my mind. The same guys are the the main people behind haystacks yet they don't use them in their own fricken product! Isn't this the whole damn idea behind it? A common tagging standard everyone can use so we don't have to dick around with each product?!?

    Fin stack is no replacement for Tridium. Sure it does the gfx, but that's about it. It also looks like a gigantic PITA if you want to organize or customize the gfx outside of their stock model. Better be all up to speed on tagging your points as well. N4 tagging rules make this so easy & reuseable, looks like a bit of a pain in their tools.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  7. #6
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    It's been a while, but I think fin actually uses haystack model for their tagging or a very close subset of it.
    The main question for me is, if everyone is so for open systems (in their propaganda bs) why don't we have a universal tagging model?
    I think however you look at it all these manufacturers are looking for a way to lock it up somehow.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by amigo View Post
    It's been a while, but I think fin actually uses haystack model for their tagging or a very close subset of it.
    Just sat in their dog and pony show maybe a month ago, and specifically asked about this once I saw their tags didn't match up. They don't. If you tag everything with the standard haystacks tags, you will be converting all of them to Fin's internal tagging scheme in order to make it work. Granted they have tools to make this fairly easy, but again....isn't this the point of haystacks?? I shouldn't need to dick around with this if I used haystacks standard tags.

    In the back of my mind something smells real funny with haystacks. Really wonder if its not some money grab, scam, or some other bait & switch scheme.

    Why do the creators of it not use it in their products? They sure run around and tell us how great it is and its going to solve interoperability problems, bla bla bla.

    Why are the available tridium jars completely outdated with the current haystacks tags?

    Why have the creators not released the N4 jar for haystacks? They claim its done, and this is an open source project??


    I asked this before, is there ANY product out there that will make use of HS tags directly? I sure as hell can't find one.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  9. #8
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    Enlighten me on "tags".

    kontrol out
    "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
    "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
    "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
    "Open protocols? You can't handle open protocols!" - Nathan R. Jessup
    “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE

  10. #9
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    Shorty story...its metadata that describes what a control point is or how its related to other points in the system.

    Its the magic that supposed to make analytics know wtf its looking at without manually mapping all the crap by hand. It knows that this is a space temp, that temp is part of a vav, that vav is related to this ahu on this floor, etc, etc.

    Fin builder uses them to try and automagicly create parts of the graphics....assuming you use their dictionary and know wtf your doing when you tag everything. Not a bad idea.

    if your system doesn't support tags, not really sure what fin builder would have to offer.

    All of this of course go to various shades of crap if everyone isnt using the same tags. This is where haystacks is supposed to come in.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  11. #10
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    haystack does smell pretty rotten

  12. #11
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    Sometin rotten all right, just haven't quite figured out the money flow yet.

    Maybe its just a way for a bunch of millennials to take in sponsor money for hookers & blow at their yearly gathering.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kontrolphreak View Post
    Enlighten me on "tags".
    Another example is the metadata on history extensions in the tbox and how you can easily sort your thousands of histories in logical groups. Same idea but on a bigger & wider scale.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  14. #13
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    If resources on a jace are an issue why not use a nuc and supervisor0? FIN is limited to the what they supply, tridium is a development platform that is not limited.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

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