What did you get for Xmas from the Company

[TheChillerMan]

I got the pleasure of remaining employed.

[freemind]

This is not the fault of the company. This is like saying that your employer is responsible for gifts that you are going to be taking credit for giving.

It is true that company moral can be affected adversely by misunderstandings of a companies ability or willingness to provide bonus's. Since there is no guarantee for prosperous years, the best thing is for companies not to ever "give" bonuses so there will be no disappointments when bonus's cannot be given.

I learned real fast as a company owner that too many employees only appreciate bonus's as long as they continue. That, my friend, is no appreciation at all.

I don't consider myself a dumb or ignorant person, nor have I ever known anyone to truely preceive me that way. The FIRST guy I ever worked for, I was thirteen. He had a partnership in a smaller hog operation, and milked 6 cows. The cows milk was sold off to a cheese plant, and done in those heavy milk cans, not a bulk tank. I was riding by one day, to head to town to see my mom (about 15 miles away) and he stopped me and asked me if I wanted a job. I agreed and started work that day. we re-roofed his house over the course of a week (first roof job I ever did). At the end of the week, he asked what I thought I should be paid, and I replied whatever you think is fair. I got a whopping check for 40 dollars, after putting in 50 hours that week. Minimum wage at the time was almost three bucks an hour. I knew I was getting the shaft, for all the work I did that summer, but the guy never flinched or felt bad about how LITTLE he paid. Finally one day he told me I was gonna go pull weeds in the bean field and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. It was pushing a hundred degrees....

I quit that day, and the worthless POS didn't bother to even pay me for the week.

I have always felt I had a level head on my shoulders, but a good employee should not whine and complain about everything, all the time. I am not the kind to ask for a raise, but I am the kind that will leave after you have left me feeling abused. I am the kind of guy that will bust my hump for you to help US be sucessful. I don't expect alot, but when you do exceptionally well, because of the extra mile I went, I like to have a monitary thank you.

People go into business to make money. People get JOBS for the same reason. Afterall, those people that work, could just as easily sit on their dead butts and collect welfare and make out better anyway.

If you want loyalty, it's gonna cost you something. If you want high moral, it too will cost you. We all have a life outside of work. Our expenses aren't getting any less, no different than those of the business owners. However, the employee can't pass off the inflation to the employer, like the employer does to the customer.

I don't think most people are much different than me. Sure, you will get the occational moron that thinks since you chraged X on the last job, well he should be getting paid Y. For the most part though, I think most are like me and don't cry about pay all day and whine how they would rather go home. We want to be shown appreciation. That comes in the form of good and fair treatment, as well as monitary compensation.

[prounionelp]

Has anyone ever heard of TriState HVAC Equipment, LLP in the Philly area? I was told they were the authorized McQuay Service contractor there. If so are they a union outfit?

[John Markl]

I don't consider myself a dumb or ignorant person, nor have I ever known anyone to truely preceive me that way. The FIRST guy I ever worked for, I was thirteen. He had a partnership in a smaller hog operation, and milked 6 cows. The cows milk was sold off to a cheese plant, and done in those heavy milk cans, not a bulk tank. I was riding by one day, to head to town to see my mom (about 15 miles away) and he stopped me and asked me if I wanted a job. I agreed and started work that day. we re-roofed his house over the course of a week (first roof job I ever did). At the end of the week, he asked what I thought I should be paid, and I replied whatever you think is fair. I got a whopping check for 40 dollars, after putting in 50 hours that week. Minimum wage at the time was almost three bucks an hour. I knew I was getting the shaft, for all the work I did that summer, but the guy never flinched or felt bad about how LITTLE he paid. Finally one day he told me I was gonna go pull weeds in the bean field and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. It was pushing a hundred degrees....

I quit that day, and the worthless POS didn't bother to even pay me for the week.

You have no one to blame but yourself. He did what you asked, and paid you what HE thought was fair for a 13-year-old kid....Not many 13-year-old kids can score minimum wage on their first job. I didn't. I got $25 a week for cleaning jukeboxes and changing out 45's for an amusement company. 7-5 M/F and 8-12 on Saturday. I was glad to have the job.

I have always felt I had a level head on my shoulders, but a good employee should not whine and complain about everything, all the time. I am not the kind to ask for a raise, but I am the kind that will leave after you have left me feeling abused. I am the kind of guy that will bust my hump for you to help US be sucessful. I don't expect alot, but when you do exceptionally well, because of the extra mile I went, I like to have a monitary thank you.

People go into business to make money. People get JOBS for the same reason. Afterall, those people that work, could just as easily sit on their dead butts and collect welfare and make out better anyway.

Gotta love that entitlement mentality.....You must have been born AFTER LBJ started his great "War On Poverty"....

If you want loyalty, it's gonna cost you something. If you want high moral, it too will cost you. We all have a life outside of work. Our expenses aren't getting any less, no different than those of the business owners. However, the employee can't pass off the inflation to the employer, like the employer does to the customer.

So, in your world, "loyalty and morale" is purely a product of "cash" ??

I don't think most people are much different than me. Sure, you will get the occational moron that thinks since you chraged X on the last job, well he should be getting paid Y. For the most part though, I think most are like me and don't cry about pay all day and whine how they would rather go home. We want to be shown appreciation. That comes in the form of good and fair treatment, as well as monitary compensation.

Nope, don't cry or whine.....unless you don't get a fat "Christmas Bonus"...

[Lightning_Boy]

My boss offered to buy me a set of Uniweld welding torches on the understanding they were his until i paid him back.

I declined and stated I prefer to invest in my own tools as I have always done.

He gave me a $10 Gas furnace troubleshooting book for my troubles...

[freemind]

Ah yes. The entitlement mentality.... Yes, that's why I have never collected a dime in welfare my whole life.

And from the sounds of it, you condone screwing people over. The minimum wage laws were around before I was born. It IS the law. It's nice how you as a fellow business owner, blame ME, for him skirting the law. Yeah, sure, it's all MY fault he decided to pay a kid MUCH less than he was obilgated to. If you don't know ANY kids that are 13 making minimum wage, you may want to come out from that rock you are hiding under. I see it ALL the time.

Try cutting your employees pay in half and see how much loyalty and moral you have. A job is nothing but a verbal (and sometimes a written) contract to perform certain duties for a certain compensation. Not any different than YOU replacing a customers furnace. MY labor is a commodity that I can sell to whomever I want. If an employee is not happy with the conditions with you, they will sell their labor to your competitor OR become your competitor. Seems simple to me. What is so hard to understand?

I certainly didn't get a "fat" Christmas bonus, nor have I been paid the way I negotiated my pay. Instead of being a bawl baby and a constant complainer about the situation, I am doing something about it. I am going to school for HVAC. When I leave, I don't care anymore about the people I am working for now. Why should I? They sure as heck won't be looking out for me. That is MY job, to look out for myself. They don't "own" me, nor do you own your people. It is a mutual agreement, and nothing more.

[freemind]

My boss offered to buy me a set of Uniweld welding torches on the understanding they were his until i paid him back.

I declined and stated I prefer to invest in my own tools as I have always done.

He gave me a $10 Gas furnace troubleshooting book for my troubles...

Wow. That was mighty big of him........

It was probably all your fault though.

[John Markl]

The minimum wage laws were around before I was born. It IS the law. It's nice how you as a fellow business owner, blame ME, for him skirting the law. Yeah, sure, it's all MY fault he decided to pay a kid MUCH less than he was obilgated to. If you don't know ANY kids that are 13 making minimum wage, you may want to come out from that rock you are hiding under. I see it ALL the time.

The federal minimum wage law is one of the primary reasons that we currently have a 18-25 year old workforce that doesn't know how to work.

The minimum wage is so high, that 13-17 year olds can't GET a job, to learn what the real world is all about.....NO 13 year old kid is worth the current minimum wage.....And the real world seems to agree....look at all the kids out there that can't find a job flipping burgers or toting groceries like my generation could....

So, the minimum wage jobs go to hispanic adults, who know how, and are willing to work for what they are worth in a real-world economy.

As I see it, the minimum wage should be eliminated or at least cut in half for those under 18.....in order to get them into the workforce at a younger age, at a pay rate that makes fiscal sense for employers. Then, when they turn 18, they will have had a reasonable opportunity to learn what a real job is all about...

[freemind]

The federal minimum wage law is one of the primary reasons that we currently have a 18-25 year old workforce that doesn't know how to work.

The minimum wage is so high, that 13-17 year olds can't GET a job, to learn what the real world is all about.....NO 13 year old kid is worth the current minimum wage.....And the real world seems to agree....look at all the kids out there that can't find a job flipping burgers or toting groceries like my generation could....


So, the minimum wage jobs go to hispanic adults, who know how, and are willing to work for what they are worth in a real-world economy.

As I see it, the minimum wage should be eliminated or at least cut in half for those under 18.....in order to get them into the workforce at a younger age, at a pay rate that makes fiscal sense for employers. Then, when they turn 18, they will have had a reasonable opportunity to learn what a real job is all about...

I don't know what "real world" you are living in, but inFACT, a local grocery store employs no less than 6 different high school kids to bag grocieries, stock shelves, and run a register. This is a very small mom and pop gorcery store.

The local fast food joints are usually running at about 50% employees that are under 18.

The local Meijers employs a fair amount of H.S. kids.

The local ice cream parlor, EXCLUSIVELY employes high school kids..

The ONLY jobs that the illegals have around here are working on dairy farms, that I have noticed. That or collecting welfare.


What you seem to be gleening past is the fact there there just isn't nearly as many jobs as their used to be. It isn't nearly as much about the cost of minimum wage, as it is there is no market for teenage labor.

There also used to be jobs for kids pumping gas at a full service gas station. Full service gas stations have went the way of the dodo bird. They don't exist anymore.

If you want to get to the heart of the matter WHY kids don't know how to work, look no further than the parents. I used to mow the lawn (3 acres) with a push mower, for NO pay or allowance. What kid do you think would do that today? Certainly not without a rider, and not without some kind of pay. What kid ever gets backhanded for lipping off to mom or dad? Not is today's world bub. That's grounds for calling in CPS. Kids are lazy and slothful because we brought them up that way.

[Chuck]

The local ice cream parlor, EXCLUSIVELY employes high school kids..

Really??? So what do they do while all of their employees are in school?

[RoBoTeq]

I don't consider myself a dumb or ignorant person, nor have I ever known anyone to truely preceive me that way. The FIRST guy I ever worked for, I was thirteen. He had a partnership in a smaller hog operation, and milked 6 cows. The cows milk was sold off to a cheese plant, and done in those heavy milk cans, not a bulk tank. I was riding by one day, to head to town to see my mom (about 15 miles away) and he stopped me and asked me if I wanted a job. I agreed and started work that day. we re-roofed his house over the course of a week (first roof job I ever did). At the end of the week, he asked what I thought I should be paid, and I replied whatever you think is fair. I got a whopping check for 40 dollars, after putting in 50 hours that week. Minimum wage at the time was almost three bucks an hour. I knew I was getting the shaft, for all the work I did that summer, but the guy never flinched or felt bad about how LITTLE he paid. Finally one day he told me I was gonna go pull weeds in the bean field and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. It was pushing a hundred degrees....

I quit that day, and the worthless POS didn't bother to even pay me for the week.

I have always felt I had a level head on my shoulders, but a good employee should not whine and complain about everything, all the time. I am not the kind to ask for a raise, but I am the kind that will leave after you have left me feeling abused. I am the kind of guy that will bust my hump for you to help US be sucessful. I don't expect alot, but when you do exceptionally well, because of the extra mile I went, I like to have a monitary thank you.

People go into business to make money. People get JOBS for the same reason. Afterall, those people that work, could just as easily sit on their dead butts and collect welfare and make out better anyway.

If you want loyalty, it's gonna cost you something. If you want high moral, it too will cost you. We all have a life outside of work. Our expenses aren't getting any less, no different than those of the business owners. However, the employee can't pass off the inflation to the employer, like the employer does to the customer.

I don't think most people are much different than me. Sure, you will get the occational moron that thinks since you chraged X on the last job, well he should be getting paid Y. For the most part though, I think most are like me and don't cry about pay all day and whine how they would rather go home. We want to be shown appreciation. That comes in the form of good and fair treatment, as well as monitary compensation.

I really don't know how to say this without it coming off not so nice. You are whining about your inability to negotiate. The man asked you how much you felt you were worth and you had no answer. Obviously you had a number in mind, but you left it up to someone else to consider your worth. To the guy you did the work for, you came off as not thinking much of yourself, so he paid you accordingly.

Why in the world would you not ask for a raise when you feel you deserve one? Are you so dependent on how others rate you that you have no thoughts of your own as to your worth?

You are claiming not to be someone who cries about pay, yet that is exactly what you are doing. Instead of showing some self respect, you allow others to determine your worth. Just take control of your self worth and negotiate up front. If you are too afraid to negotiate, what are others going to think of you?

The other side of this is that we are only hearing your story. Maybe you think you were really good at roofing but the guy you were working for thought you were not much more then someone capable of handing him nails. I have no idea, of course, but the point is that you did not sell yourself, so your employer never had to buy what you had to offer. You put your employer in the position of being able to take advantage of you. You were in control of what you are complaining about by not showing any belief in yourself.

If anyone needs to work for government or under control of a labor union, you could be the poster boy.

[freemind]

Really??? So what do they do while all of their employees are in school?

The owner runs it by herself.

[RoBoTeq]

Ah yes. The entitlement mentality.... Yes, that's why I have never collected a dime in welfare my whole life.

And from the sounds of it, you condone screwing people over. The minimum wage laws were around before I was born. It IS the law. It's nice how you as a fellow business owner, blame ME, for him skirting the law. Yeah, sure, it's all MY fault he decided to pay a kid MUCH less than he was obilgated to. If you don't know ANY kids that are 13 making minimum wage, you may want to come out from that rock you are hiding under. I see it ALL the time.

Try cutting your employees pay in half and see how much loyalty and moral you have. A job is nothing but a verbal (and sometimes a written) contract to perform certain duties for a certain compensation. Not any different than YOU replacing a customers furnace. MY labor is a commodity that I can sell to whomever I want. If an employee is not happy with the conditions with you, they will sell their labor to your competitor OR become your competitor. Seems simple to me. What is so hard to understand?

I certainly didn't get a "fat" Christmas bonus, nor have I been paid the way I negotiated my pay. Instead of being a bawl baby and a constant complainer about the situation, I am doing something about it. I am going to school for HVAC. When I leave, I don't care anymore about the people I am working for now. Why should I? They sure as heck won't be looking out for me. That is MY job, to look out for myself. They don't "own" me, nor do you own your people. It is a mutual agreement, and nothing more.

Under labor laws, you should not have been allowed to even help someone put on a roof at 13. Honestly, read what you write out loud as if you are telling your tale to that person in a mirror. If you don't puke before the end of your whinefest, you should never again make a decision for yourself.

[freemind]

I really don't know how to say this without it coming off not so nice. You are whining about your inability to negotiate. The man asked you how much you felt you were worth and you had no answer. Obviously you had a number in mind, but you left it up to someone else to consider your worth. To the guy you did the work for, you came off as not thinking much of yourself, so he paid you accordingly.

Why in the world would you not ask for a raise when you feel you deserve one? Are you so dependent on how others rate you that you have no thoughts of your own as to your worth?

You are claiming not to be someone who cries about pay, yet that is exactly what you are doing. Instead of showing some self respect, you allow others to determine your worth. Just take control of your self worth and negotiate up front. If you are too afraid to negotiate, what are others going to think of you?

The other side of this is that we are only hearing your story. Maybe you think you were really good at roofing but the guy you were working for thought you were not much more then someone capable of handing him nails. I have no idea, of course, but the point is that you did not sell yourself, so your employer never had to buy what you had to offer. You put your employer in the position of being able to take advantage of you. You were in control of what you are complaining about by not showing any belief in yourself.

If anyone needs to work for government or under control of a labor union, you could be the poster boy.

It doesn't bother me that you were "not so nice". What bothers me is the fact minimum wage was X, and I was paid less than half. I had never had a paying job before. The business owner OBVIOUSLY took advanatage of me. Seems simple enough, without and explaination, that I was worth at least minimum wage.

I did more than just roof for the thief, I also worked on his farm. The first week was all the roofing I did for him.

What makes your post humorous is, that if your guys came walking in, wanting more money every year, you would tell them to walk. No business owner wants to keep raising the wages of the workers all the time. I have heard all the excuses in the book, and none of them came back that it was me that was truely was the problem.

Do you give your guys a raise every year to keep up with inflation? Of coarse not. No employer does. Even COLA for those on SS doesn't do that. You are quick to point the finger at me. I didn't decide to skirt the law, he did.

Selling yourself is proving your worth. Not dazzeling someone with B.S. You business folks wonder why the government looks up your behinds with a magnafying glass, look no further than some of your answer here. The way employers treat employees badly IS a problem, or they wouldn't have created SO many regualtions on business and the way it operates. Decency is also long gone. The only things most people have repsect for anymore, seems to be the almighty dollar, and nothing more.

Personally, I would rather see MUCH less government control over everything. However, that sure would invite chaos with the attitudes I see from business folks. I hope they all are happy. They created the environment.

[freemind]

Under labor laws, you should not have been allowed to even help someone put on a roof at 13. Honestly, read what you write out loud as if you are telling your tale to that person in a mirror. If you don't puke before the end of your whinefest, you should never again make a decision for yourself.

Oh wait, more of my fault stuff again?

What makes me puke is the fact that you blame me. You fault me for not knowing any better at 13 but a business owner who knew MUCH more than me, gets a free pass.

Gee, I just can't figure why folks are on a "I hate the rich" rant and why they think government should just eat the rich.

[Lightning_Boy]

Wow. That was mighty big of him........

It was probably all your fault though.

Yup, I think i definitely disappointed him when I turned down his offer. While I appreciate his willingness to help invest in me, I believe in earning what you have. That way you look after it.

I guess the gas furnace book was meant as a sort of joke...

[Lightning_Boy]

Ah yes. The entitlement mentality.... Yes, that's why I have never collected a dime in welfare my whole life.

And from the sounds of it, you condone screwing people over. The minimum wage laws were around before I was born. It IS the law. It's nice how you as a fellow business owner, blame ME, for him skirting the law. Yeah, sure, it's all MY fault he decided to pay a kid MUCH less than he was obilgated to. If you don't know ANY kids that are 13 making minimum wage, you may want to come out from that rock you are hiding under. I see it ALL the time.

Okay the way I see it:

Freemind: An adult took advantage of your naivety as a child. Shame on him for exploiting your hard effort and willingness. However, I'll bet it taught you a little something about the value of a dollar.

As for your statements regarding employees and the entitlement culture, I have to agree for the most part. I used to see former coworker's getting bail outs and undeserved ($3,000 xmas bonus) cash handouts when they barely showed up to work and closed already sold leads. (Nepotism and family...)

However I digress, I see the entitlement culture everywhere, I left the UK because welfare bennies and "gimmie, gimmie" mentality was getting too much for me to stomach. Hard work and studying are dying traits in the teens and mid 20's crowd.
I'm barely 30 and I see a huge difference in people my age and those a decade younger.

Try cutting your employees pay in half and see how much loyalty and moral you have. A job is nothing but a verbal (and sometimes a written) contract to perform certain duties for a certain compensation. Not any different than YOU replacing a customers furnace. MY labor is a commodity that I can sell to whomever I want. If an employee is not happy with the conditions with you, they will sell their labor to your competitor OR become your competitor. Seems simple to me. What is so hard to understand?

I would agree that loyalty is something earned and hate to say it but employers truly earn talented staff's loyalty by rewarding them accordingly for their results. (Not always $$ but perks and days off are nice!)


I certainly didn't get a "fat" Christmas bonus, nor have I been paid the way I negotiated my pay. Instead of being a bawl baby and a constant complainer about the situation, I am doing something about it. I am going to school for HVAC. When I leave, I don't care anymore about the people I am working for now. Why should I? They sure as heck won't be looking out for me. That is MY job, to look out for myself. They don't "own" me, nor do you own your people. It is a mutual agreement, and nothing more.

Take what you can from the experience and never burn bridges, believe me there's been times I've wanted to smash skulls and cut brake lines but a positive outlook kept me going. A good reference goes a long way...

[RoBoTeq]

It doesn't bother me that you were "not so nice". What bothers me is the fact minimum wage was X, and I was paid less than half. I had never had a paying job before. The business owner OBVIOUSLY took advanatage of me. Seems simple enough, without and explaination, that I was worth at least minimum wage.

Then why did you not tell the man that wanted at least minimum wage?

I did more than just roof for the thief, I also worked on his farm. The first week was all the roofing I did for him.

Why is he a thief? He gave you money. He gave you more then you asked for.

What makes your post humorous is, that if your guys came walking in, wanting more money every year, you would tell them to walk. No business owner wants to keep raising the wages of the workers all the time. I have heard all the excuses in the book, and none of them came back that it was me that was truely was the problem.

Well, I have not owned a business with employees for over a decade. When I did, I did not have issues with my men over compensation. Owning a merit shop company in a union state gave me advantages to work on government projects (mostly military) where the bid for the job and job overruns paid for the government scale wages my workers made. On low scale pay jobs, their pay was more then then the scale rates. So there was never an issue over pay. My guys told me what they wanted when they came to work for me, we negotiated, and then they usually made more anyway.

Do you give your guys a raise every year to keep up with inflation? Of coarse not. No employer does. Even COLA for those on SS doesn't do that. You are quick to point the finger at me. I didn't decide to skirt the law, he did.

See above for the first part of your inquiry. Did you abide by the law by having a work permit to work for this man when you were underaged? Did you pay taxes on your earnings? Was your pay even recorded, or did you just take money "under the table"?

Selling yourself is proving your worth. Not dazzeling someone with B.S. You business folks wonder why the government looks up your behinds with a magnafying glass, look no further than some of your answer here. The way employers treat employees badly IS a problem, or they wouldn't have created SO many regualtions on business and the way it operates. Decency is also long gone. The only things most people have repsect for anymore, seems to be the almighty dollar, and nothing more.

All I am hearing is WAHH....WAHHHHHH! You obviously have no idea what a business owner goes through to run a business.

Personally, I would rather see MUCH less government control over everything. However, that sure would invite chaos with the attitudes I see from business folks. I hope they all are happy. They created the environment.

You sound like someone who would be happier in a very Socialist country.

[RoBoTeq]

Oh wait, more of my fault stuff again?

What makes me puke is the fact that you blame me. You fault me for not knowing any better at 13 but a business owner who knew MUCH more than me, gets a free pass.

Gee, I just can't figure why folks are on a "I hate the rich" rant and why they think government should just eat the rich.

We all make mistakes. Some of us learn from them. What is wrong with my saying that you were at fault? My best learned lessons were from when I was at fault for a situation that was not in my best interest.

Do you need a hug?

[enb54]

You business folks wonder why the government looks up your behinds with a magnafying glass, look no further than some of your answer here. The way employers treat employees badly IS a problem, or they wouldn't have created SO many regualtions on business and the way it operates. Decency is also long gone. The only things most people have repsect for anymore, seems to be the almighty dollar, and nothing more.

Personally, I would rather see MUCH less government control over everything. However, that sure would invite chaos with the attitudes I see from business folks. I hope they all are happy. They created the environment.

Hi Freemind...
I use contract employees when I need them in my business, and never ever underpay or treat them like something a dog drops. Employers who do that are usually not in business very long, and if they are, they're always under a magnifying glass by legal entities that I don't want around. Small business creates more jobs than just about anyone else, and no one in their right mind is going to treat skilled employees so badly that they'll leave for $0.50 an hour more. I am sorry that you have had obviously some nasty experiences, but most of us are fair and wanting to work as a team in our endeavours. I am in this not only to make money, but also to have fun. I personally believe that if you don't enjoy what you do, treat employees fairly and admit mistakes when they happen (they do!) to employees and the customer, then you should not be in business.

Sorry all, venting again, just my $0.02 worth