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Thread: out of ideas

  1. #261
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    AND NOW THE PLOT THICKENS >>>>>>
    After adjusting the pondering chair, we now are able to see:
    Fact, motor #2 is not a wimp and should be rehired, well maybe after rehab !!
    Fact, Power is the result of Voltage and Amps, so if amps reflects the amount of muscle being used to do the work, (and we see the work reflected on the amp meter) we must then start to look at the arm the muscle is attached to.....
    Proper sized arms are the key to good working results, based on the report of weak arms on other units, (ie: cover motor passing out), then we will have to have an ARM doctor come in to take X-rays. We all know a great doctor.......
    Only thing is, will the doctor be willing to tell the truth about the condition of the arm..... (with out pissin off a group of doctors, I would hope the local doctor finds "THIER" problem)

    And so I say, "I remember when Electricity was just "ELECTRICITY"........

    Looks like the end is nearer now, I'm gona say its an electrical problem ????? any takers>

  2. #262
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    deep pondering

    deep pondering of many professional minds
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  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo and me View Post

    Looks like the end is nearer now, I'm gona say its an electrical problem ????? any takers>
    Hmmmmmmmm..................................seems that quite a few of us have been saying that right form the gitgo

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyman#1 View Post
    Hmmmmmmmm..................................seems that quite a few of us have been saying that right form the gitgo

  5. #265
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    Pondering.....pondering........
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  6. #266
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    Nov 2001
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    Seattle, WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo and me View Post
    AND NOW THE PLOT THICKENS >>>>>>
    Looks like the end is nearer now, I'm gona say its an electrical problem ????? any takers>
    Not me. I'm still stickin to misapplied trouble shooting techniques and/or misapplied motor application.

    See, I have a bunch of high tech customers already with tons of solid state electrical devices in their homes where machines like this already exist and have existed for up to 20 years with no problems.

    It takes a tons of computer like applications/ solid state like applications before power problems become a problem, mainly in the neutrals of the residence/building due to harmonics.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    Not me. I'm still stickin to misapplied trouble shooting techniques and/or misapplied motor application.

    See, I have a bunch of high tech customers already with tons of solid state electrical devices in their homes where machines like this already exist and have existed for up to 20 years with no problems.

    It takes a tons of computer like applications/ solid state like applications before power problems become a problem, mainly in the neutrals of the residence/building due to harmonics.
    "misapplied motor application"? Fruecrue said the motor passed a "benchtest". Isn't a benchtest just doing what fruecrue has already done? Hook the damn thing up without a load and test for amps? Maybe a benchtest means more and my inexperience is showing.

    "mis-applied troubleshooting techniques". Fruecrue was pretty clear as to what troubleshooting he did. What do you think he "mis-applied"? What would you have done differently?

  8. #268
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    In these systems there are a lot of drag cause by the different coils and the sizes of the coils so any bench test or test in place with panels off is typically not accurate. Under normal operating conditions the panels are on and the dehumidification coil is wet, very wet causing even more drag or pressure drop. This is reflective of actually motor operating conditions in these types of applications.

    Secondly, the duct work typically is very long- especially the return air as it is suppose to be at the hightest point in the pool room -- including a ton of turns, especially for an 8 ton rated systems such as this one, and it typically includes some form of additional secondary reheat. If this reheat is in the form of an hydronic inline coil or inline gas furnace of some sort then even more resistance to the duct work in added.

    So all the panels...all the panels...must be in place and the sytem should be operating in some form then the amp draw, voltages can be accurately taken to give a true and meaningful reading of the actual power usage of the motor(s) under actual conditions.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  9. #269
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    Dec 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    In these systems there are a lot of drag cause by the different coils and the sizes of the coils so any bench test or test in place with panels off is typically not accurate. Under normal operating conditions the panels are on and the dehumidification coil is wet, very wet causing even more drag or pressure drop. This is reflective of actually motor operating conditions in these types of applications.

    Secondly, the duct work typically is very long- especially the return air as it is suppose to be at the hightest point in the pool room -- including a ton of turns, especially for an 8 ton rated systems such as this one, and it typically includes some form of additional secondary reheat. If this reheat is in the form of an hydronic inline coil or inline gas furnace of some sort then even more resistance to the duct work in added.

    So all the panels...all the panels...must be in place and the sytem should be operating in some form then the amp draw, voltages can be accurately taken to give a true and meaningful reading of the actual power usage of the motor(s) under actual conditions.
    readings in first post of loaded motor were all taken from the contactor, outside the air passages, with all panels on. As stated many times before, blower curves and fan laws are very important. In this particular situation, all amp readings were the same, regardless of motor loading including unloaded condition without belt. One cannot apply fan laws without a functional fan drive. Two motors draw 12.6 A unloaded on site, nameplate RLA is 11 A, one was proven to be fully operational off-site by a local motor repair shop.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    In these systems there are a lot of drag cause by the different coils and the sizes of the coils so any bench test or test in place with panels off is typically not accurate. Under normal operating conditions the panels are on and the dehumidification coil is wet, very wet causing even more drag or pressure drop. This is reflective of actually motor operating conditions in these types of applications.

    Secondly, the duct work typically is very long- especially the return air as it is suppose to be at the hightest point in the pool room -- including a ton of turns, especially for an 8 ton rated systems such as this one, and it typically includes some form of additional secondary reheat. If this reheat is in the form of an hydronic inline coil or inline gas furnace of some sort then even more resistance to the duct work in added.

    So all the panels...all the panels...must be in place and the sytem should be operating in some form then the amp draw, voltages can be accurately taken to give a true and meaningful reading of the actual power usage of the motor(s) under actual conditions.
    Ok, I am not as experienced or knowledgable, as you obviously are, on these particular systems. However, given the information from the OP, and using the old K.I.S.S. troubleshooting guideline, I still say he has power issues of some sort. Motor with no load tested on site............drawing RLA. Same motor tested off site, no load, drawing less than RLA. Pool cover motor replaced and 2 weeks later failed. Total of 3 blower motors replaced and failed. Originally was running with proper amp draw at some point prior to first blower motor failure. Again, using the KISS method, it appears to me that something has changed at the site regarding the incoming power supply to these motors. Either way, there are alot of people following this thread that are anxious to hear the outcome.

  11. #271

    Makes sense

    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyman#1 View Post
    Ok, I am not as experienced or knowledgable, as you obviously are, on these particular systems. However, given the information from the OP, and using the old K.I.S.S. troubleshooting guideline, I still say he has power issues of some sort. Motor with no load tested on site............drawing RLA. Same motor tested off site, no load, drawing less than RLA. Pool cover motor replaced and 2 weeks later failed. Total of 3 blower motors replaced and failed. Originally was running with proper amp draw at some point prior to first blower motor failure. Again, using the KISS method, it appears to me that something has changed at the site regarding the incoming power supply to these motors. Either way, there are alot of people following this thread that are anxious to hear the outcome.

    I am a new member to this forum and, in the past, usually just observed. But this problem has me in "high alert". I look forward to a resolve or at the least an answer to the MYSTERY.

  12. #272
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    Dec 2009
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    Hotlanta GA.
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    GET IN LINE !!!!!
    Well I guess we go back to sittin and Pondering !!!!

  13. #273
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    Dec 2009
    Location
    Buffalo, N.Y
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    I may go there wednesday, depending upon another job wrapping up in an efficient manner and light emergency call status.

    I will record and post all electrical data, but if it is a power factor issue, i'm not sure how to identify it...................

    Any suggestions? Dare I ask?

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