What other options are there besides Waterfurnace

[Williamsburg]

To the Waterfurnace Rep on This Thread,

I also posted about our leaky coil problem on this thread prior to this gentlemen's ("Unhappy Customer") complaint.

My post was "Waterfurnace Versatec Evaporator Coil Leaks" posted on 12-23-2009 at 2:42 PM)...I am the homeowner who had TWO Waterfurnace Versatec coils fail at the same time on two, three-year-old systems at Christmas. Sadly, we were out of luck. It sounds like this man just had a similar thing happen but he happily, got more than a one year warranty like we did. One thing we did learn: we should have been very proactive in researching and specifing the geothermal HVAC systems that we installed in our new construction home. Hindsight is always 20/20, I guess.

These leaking coils are not small, inexpensive repairs. It brings the system to its knees and costs a great deal of money to fix. But at least you responded to this man's post. Mine received no such response.

You are a Waterfurnace rep, so it is a rare opportunity to communicate directly with you, and not via "an independent dealer." The dealer that installed our systems no longer sells Waterfurnace--they have switched to a different manufacturer.

Since you cannot discuss costs, can you discuss the equipment you sell?

What is the expected average lifespan for coils in the systems you sell? I am curious...do you know...what is the average life span for kitchen refrigerators and radiators in large trucks...the coils are a similar design, right? Is there something really complex or complicated about the coil systems in geothermal systems that causes them to fail?

Please forgive my ignorance. I am just a poor female homeowner who now worries every day about the reliability of the replacement coils we installed in our two systems at Christmas time---will they fail in the next few years, too? Any cost savings we had from the systems went up in smoke--rather disappointing, when we installed the expensive-up-front systems in order to save money.

Please forgive me, but I am an unhappy (and concerned) customer, too.

[FL_green_home]

So, Waterfurnace pays the dealer/installer an undisclosed amount for labor to fix a warranty issue... and then the dealer/installer gets to decide how much of that payment to credit to the homeowner. Can anybody else see what is wrong with that process? Why would a manufacturer allow their customer satisfaction to be left at the discretion of a third party (the dealer/installer)?

My installer tells me that I only get 30% off my warranty labor... how is that even close to the industry standard for this type of repair? How can a customer even determine if they are getting the value of the warranty they paid for up front if the allowance is a secret between the manufacturer and the dealer?

Shall we continue this discussion in a public forum or would you prefer to provide a name and phone number so that we can discuss this directly.

Thanks.

[WF_Inc]

Williamsburg,

We apologize that you did not receive a response to your post. WaterFurnace joined the social media networks in January of 2010 in order to better assist WaterFurnace owners. We are doing our best to respond to posts as they come in. We encourage anyone with an issue to contact us, so that we may offer our assistance.

The life expectancy of our systems is 15-20 years, depending on the installation, application, and conditions under which they operate. The coils in refrigerators and automobile radiators have the same principal as the coils in our units; however, the design, application, and refrigerant are different.

Unfortunately, we are unaware of what might have caused the leak in your coils. If you will provide your model number, serial number, and the name of your installing contractor, we will request that the coils be returned for testing, if they still have them. Again, we apologize that you were not responded to earlier. We are more than happy to work with you and your contractor to facilitate a resolution.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

We will be more than happy to provide the warranty schedule for your unit. Please confirm your email address so that we can provide this to you.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[FL_green_home]

You may send the information to: nospam_acct@mindspring.com

Thanks.

[Williamsburg]

Waterfurnace,

Our systems were installed by Extreme Climates (757) 229-2191 on behalf of the best custom builder in this area. They replaced the two leaking air coils. They no longer sell your equipment. They have the information on our two units: I know they called you at the time. That is what they told me. Extreme Climates replaced both coil units for $2,400. They gave us a discount on the second unit because they felt bad for us. Our names are Colin and Clare Britcher and we live in Williamsburg. Perhaps you would like to give them a call?

We had a second opinion from Bud's Heating and Air Conditioning (757) 890-2600. They told me that they contacted you at the time on our behalf as well. They do sell your equipment. We had them look at the installation, conditions, etc. and the written reports on both systems were clean. I thought I'd mention this BEFORE you got around to blaming the installation for the problem. We asked about the installation, conditions, etc. We were told it was fine. Both firms said they considered it to be "a manufacturing defect" in the coils.

When both firms contacted you they were told, "1 year warranty." So you washed your hands and left it to the local dealer to punch out a solution and deal with us. Bud's now has our maintenance contract, as we thought we may get better customer service from you if the dealer sold your equipment, and Bud's seemed like a professional and customer-service oriented company. We also liked Extreme Climates but as I said, they have switched suppliers.

I will ask my husband to respond to the group with serial numbers, etc. in the event that you choose not to conatct the installing dealer directly. Let me know if you need the serial numbers, and if you would consider furnishing us with your private telephone number, Email, and name. At this point, my only way to contact you is via this forum. I'd be happy to send you our private contact information, privately.

My husband is a proferssor of Aerospace/Mechanical Engineering at a large southeastern university, and has worked for many years with NASA and wind tunnels. He was educated in Europe, where they require PhD students to do hands-on training on assembly lines: he knows his way around machinery and manufacturing. I believe you will find that he can discuss the equipment problems we had with your coils with some level of understanding. He said that in his opinion, the coils should NOT have failed so soon.

Extreme Climates submerged the units in a wheel barrow filled with water in order to show me that the units were indeed leaking. They failed at almost the same time, and were leaking in almost the same place. The failures were confirmed by the second opinion, too. I know I asked this before...are coil leaks a common problem with your equipment? Just curious.

We kept the leaky coils, on advice from the dealer. Where shall I send them?

If the air coil units in the Versatec system you sell are reliable, then why are they only under a 1 year warranty? If they should last for 20 years, then why not warrant them for say 10 or 15 years and split the difference of the risk with your customers?

I do truly appreciate your responding, finally. May I make a suggestion, though? In the future, when you join a group such as this one, you may want to do a group message search on "waterfurnace." That way you will get to see what everyone has had to say about their experiences, good or bad, and you can then respond to those customers who may have a problem that you can help to resolve. Just a thought.

[WF_Inc]

Williamsburg,

Thank you for the additional information. We have been in contact with both contractors and are waiting on additional information. Once we have received this information, we will be in contact with you.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[danielworkerbee]

Dear, WF Inc.
I think your jumping to help these people is a testament to your customer service.
thanks dan

[WF_Inc]

Williamsburg,

After reviewing information provided by Extreme Climates, we have determined that the serial numbers you provided are for Paradise units. WaterFurnace assembled these units for Paradise. There is a 1 year parts and 5 year compressor manufacturer’s warranty; however, Paradise may have offered other warranty options. We would suggest contacting Extreme Climates to discuss what warranty was purchased with your unit.

We will be more than happy to test the coils for the failure reason. Please send the coils to the address below, and include your name and the model and serial numbers of the units. Thank you for the opportunity to work with you to resolve this issue.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.
Attn: Consumer Relations Department
9000 Conservation Way
Fort Wayne, IN 46709

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Williamsburg]

Waterfurnace,

While you consider the matter "resolved", I fear it has done little to remedy our to-date unhappy experience with the expensive, leaky coil replacements. But I will thank you for at last agreeing to look at the failed units. I will ship them to you, on my nickle. My hope is that you will take some sort of steps to insure that the coils in your units, for whatever reason, last longer than 3 years, especially when you say they should last 15 or 20.

By the way, who in the world is Paradise??? The metal sticker on the inside of the cabinet on our systems says "Indiana." Our dealers say Versatec is a Waterfurnace product, as does your website and the marketing brochures. We were told we have Versatec systems by both local dealers, but you now say no, they are Paradise, assembled by Waterfurnace??? Is "Paradise" the firm in Canada? Are they one of your subsidiary companies? Who is Paradise???

What "other warranty options" are you talking about that Extreme Climates may have had with Paradise? I am confused, because I thought a warranty is a warranty, and that Waterfurnace assembles and markets the Versatec systems, so therefore has some responsibility to the end-users for the parts and the dealers. Can you please explain how this Dealer options for warranty on parts works? Why is this separate warranty with Paradise, and Waterfurnace is not at all invloved? My head is spinning.

When I get my car serviced, they do not tell me to call the parts manufacturer in Japan. When I call Sears for service on my kitchen appliances, they do not refer me to the people who made the heating coils in the oven. And to make things even more confusing, the dealer acts independently from you...and our "Waterfurnace" systems are not Waterfurnace but "Paradise." At least that is my impression. Please correct me if I am wrong about this! Can you see why I am confused?

Getting back to Paradise. This is the first time I have ever heard or read that name...did they make the entire system? Or do they just make the coils in the Waterfurnace Versatec systems? I went back to your website and looked at the online brochures:

http://www.waterfurnace.com/marketin...pdf/WF1581.pdf

http://secure.waterfurnace.com/docs/...tec/SP2600.pdf

The brochures do not, I think, mention Paradise--only Waterfurnace, and talk about the reliability of the equipment. Or did I miss something? Are Versatec systems Waterfurnace or Paradise? Please explain this to me, because I am really confused now.

You stated in your reply that for your part you have "resolved this issue". But do you think I am a more happy and satisified customer than I was ten minutes ago? Do you think I feel everything is now "resolved" and that I am if not happy, at least relieved? Truthfully, I am even more confused and more worried about the replacement coils in our systems. If Paradise did actually make our systems, what happens if they go out of business?

It seems the corporate definition of "customer service" is not the same as my idea of "customer satisfaction." Maybe even the idea of who makes the geothermal HVAC systems is a matter of opinion. Beats me.

Ok, I'll send you the leaky coils, return receipt requested. I'll add the shipping expense to our current $2,400 repair expenses on our two, then-3 year old systems.

In your final reply, you said, "Thank you for the opportunity to work with you to resolve this issue." Sounds like on your end, you consder this whole thing to be done and dusted.

Thank you too, for your concern and help. Would you like for me to post a customer testimonal on your website? But first, which is it? Waterfurnace or Paradise?

Respectfully but thoroughly confused,
Williamsburg

[Popoff]

I was planning to sign a contract tomorrow with my local dealer for a Water Furnace installation. Seeing Williamsburg's post and WF's response (or lack thereof) are making me wonder if I'm making a good decision. Williamsburg bought a WF unit and now it appears that WF is disowning it. Will this happen to me if I have problems?

I think I'll postpone placing the order until I see how this plays out.

[FL_green_home]

I don't blame you for hesitating Popoff. Looks like I may be on the hook for over $1200 in diagnostics and labor on two units only two years old... both coils are leaking according to the dealer/installer. The dealer/installer tells me that WF only pays for 30% of the labor and nothing for diagnostics or refrigerant. WF tells me that they pay a flat fee for labor, including diagnostics, and partial payment for refrigerant.

So, now I have to call the installer and ask them why they are not giving me the full amounts paid for by the WF warranty... in other words calling them dishonest. I'm sure you can see where this is going... not the kind of experience an owner imagines when they are deciding to purchase what was supposed to be the best equipment in the category.

It makes you wonder what percentage of units sold are failing to make a company not just step up and "make it right" by the customer as many first rate, customer oriented companies will do. Especially for a high-ticket item such as this where it's really more of an "investment" than a one-off purchase.

My house was featured in a magazine article last year where the geothermal units were mentioned as one of the major "green" features that require a significant up-front investment but will pay for themselves over time. I may have to update them with a follow-up editorial based on how things are handled by all parties involved here.

[Bergy]

The Paradise brand was manufactured by WFI for Enertech. Enertech no longer has units made by WFI as they now manufacture their own. The 1 year parts and 5 year compressor was standard warranty for WFI at the time. Dealers could offer, through Equiguard, extended parts and labor warranties. If your dealer did not offer, or you did not want, an extended warranty then you are on your own. The 1&5 warranty always bothered me, after all, even the lower end furnaces and condensers had 5 year parts 10 year compressor warranty. My thought was if I'm asking someone to pay 20~30K it should have the BEST warranty to reflect the cost.

Bergy

[ChaseAir]

If a coil leaks and we gave you a ten year parts and labor warranty, you would not be paying anything for ten years. A lot of companies apparently don't have warranties that are true.
They have "concrete warranties" - when the truck leaves the concrete driveway, so does the warranty....

[Williamsburg]

Thank you, Bergy, for explaining the the strange "Paradise" reference. Except it isn't Paradise, it's Enertech! That must be the company in Canada that replaced the leaky coils!? Is it just me, or is this all rather confusing?

Ok, if I am sifting through all the information correctly, I think our systems are indeed Waterfurnace, by default. That's what the two local dealers thought, too. But it sounds like the warranty does not vest with WF, but with Paradise, which is now Enertech? Enertech is in Canada (?) so they may have different manufacturing and consumer standards? Just wondering, since I do not live in Canada, but in the USA. The inside sticker on our units still say "Indiana."

It further seems that the installing dealer, who never asked us anything about any extended warranties, could have bought a longer-than-one-year warranty, but didn't. The Paradise (now "Enertech") warranty could have been upgraded with another company called Equigard. At least, I think this is right. Like I said, this is all pretty confusing for me. We now have two more new new names, Enertech and Equigard, in addition to Paradise. I wonder what the next name that pops up will be? One thing is for sure, our two systems have a pedigree with more names than Secretariat had in his pedigree. Ha!

The installing dealer no longer sells WF and since everything seems to center around the dealer rather than the end-user as far as warranties, that's not so good. But we have done something right...our new maintenance contract is with a WF dealer. They seem like a nice firm. I hope they are good at keeping the equipment running, fingers crossed. They have a good local reputation.

We DID have enough sense to ask about the replacement coils. We were told "1 year warranty." Does Equigard offer an extended warranty on replacement parts? Does anyone know? That would have been at least some assurance, in case the coils start to leak again before 15-20 years. But then again, we got the replacement coils through the dealer who no longer sells WF. I guess, that's not so good. Oh well. Maybe I can still get in touch with Equigard, or do I have to be a dealer?

Please, please, if I am wrong about any of these assumptions, please set me straight. I am sifting through an awful lot of names and information here.

FL Green Home: I hope your journey is more straight-forward than mine has been, and that you get your leaking coils fixed, and that the replacements run trouble-free for 30 years, and that it does not cost a bunch of money!

Popoff, I cannot tell you where to go, only where I have been, and where I am now. I really, really wish my husband and I had researched and spec'ed our HVAC units with the same care and concern that we used when we spec'ed our light fixtures and our exterior finishes. With hindsight, our choices would have been much different. Good luck with your geothermal system...I do think, in spite of everything, they are the way of the future.

As of this minute, our two systems are operating well, and are trouble-free. I pray to that continues for many years to come. You see, I, more than anyone else, really want the systems to work and work well, because they live with me every day of my life and do much to see to my family's comfort. God willing, my systems will out-live me.

Williamsburg

[WF_Inc]

Williamsburg,

Please accept our apologies as we believe that our intentions were not made clear. Please understand that in no way did we mean to imply that we consider this issue resolved. Unfortunately, until we know the cause of the coil failures, we are unable to offer any suggestions for resolution.

WaterFurnace assembled Paradise equipment for Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) customers and distributors. The OEM customers and distributors determine the warranties and selling price of Paradise equipment, whereas WaterFurnace equipment is manufactured and sold directly to WaterFurnace dealers in your area. WaterFurnace is supported by customer service, technical service, and warranty departments in Fort Wayne, Indiana, while customer support for Paradise equipment is provided by the OEM customers and distributors.

According to our information Extreme Climates has never been a WaterFurnace dealer; therefore, they are unable to purchase WaterFurnace equipment. When we spoke to Extreme Climates, they confirmed that the equipment in your home is Paradise equipment, and that they had been contracted by your builder. It is unfortunate that you were not made aware of this at the time of purchase.

We do understand your concerns and will do what we can to assist you in facilitating a resolution. We are currently waiting to hear from Extreme Climates to discuss your issue further. Once we have discussed these issues with them and have tested the coils we will be in contact with you to review our findings.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

Popoff,

We agree that you should be educated as to what you are purchasing. If you purchase WaterFurnace equipment from a WaterFurnace dealer, you will have a WaterFurnace warranty and access to consumer relations. Your WaterFurnace dealer will also have access to customer support, technical support, field support, warranty, etc.

In Williamsburg situation, she thought that she had purchased WaterFurnace equipment. Unfortunately, the equipment is Paradise equipment. We have offered to test the failed coils, and we will stand behind that offer, and will assist in a resolution for her.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

Please be assured that we are not calling your contractor dishonest. When we spoke to your contractor they informed us that the labor allowance provided by WaterFurnace is approximately 30% of what they charge. The decision to pass any charges above and beyond warranty on to you is made by the contractor. One contractor may quote a higher amount that includes service work, while another contractor may quote a lower amount that doesn’t include service work. All contractors independently price and sell service contracts, which may or may not include additional warranty coverage, and this is beyond the control of WaterFurnace. We have honored the warranty purchased with your equipment per the terms and conditions of our published warranty. Once we have tested the coils and determined the failure reason, we can discuss a resolution to these concerns.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

Bergy and ChaseAir,

The standard warranty for WaterFurnace units is a 10 year parts and labor allowance warranty. This warranty includes the part at no charge and a labor allowance to change out the part.

We regularly check our warranty allowance with those of our competitors and find that we consistently cover more items for longer periods and at more generous rates than our competition. In addition, we provide more technical assistance than our competitors.

As stated in a previous post, Williamsburg thought she had WaterFurnace equipment. As it turns out the units are Paradise equipment. We offered to test the coils before we were aware that the units were not WaterFurnace equipment; however, we will stand behind our offer in an effort to assist Williamsburg in finding a resolution.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Popoff]

WF, thank you for the prompt response to my post as well as the others.

I spoke to my dealer today (a WF authorized contractor) and he stated that they are contractually bound to WF to accept the labor charge paid by WF and not pass on any additional labor charges to the customer. This is different than what I'm reading in your most recent post.

From past direct experience and knowledge of his reputation in the area, I know my contractor to be an honest and reliable person so it puzzles me as to the contradiction between what he told me and what I'm reading here.

I've emailed him and am awaiting his reply. Any comments you would care to make would also be appreciated.

I'm looking at installing an Envision system and am excited about the prospect.