What other options are there besides Waterfurnace

[WF_Inc]

Popoff,

WaterFurnace does not authorize anyone to service equipment on our behalf; however, we do have dealers that are able to purchase equipment from us. Our Owner’s Manual explains that the labor allowance is designed to reduce the cost of repairs. However, it may not cover the entire labor fee charged by your dealer. Not all warranty options include a labor allowance. All WaterFurnace dealers are independently owned and operated, and not under our control. If the dealer chooses not to pass those charges on to you, then that is their choice. Please visit our website, www.waterfurnace.com, and click on “Your Home.” Under “WaterFurnace Owners,” at the bottom left corner, you will find our Owner’s Manual.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[FL_green_home]

WF Inc,

I was not suggesting that WF was calling my installer dishonest. I was simply pointing out that there was a contradiction between what the installer told me WF would pay and the WF labor allowance schedule you sent to me. The labor allowance schedule you sent to me indicates that I am entitled to almost twice as much allowance as what the installer was giving me. When I informed the installer that I was given the allowance schedule by WF, they acted as if they did not know the amounts of the allowances for my units. When I told them the amounts, they immediately offered to credit me those amounts. I will leave any conclusions as to the honesty (or diligence) of my installer up to those reading this thread.

My question now is... is the refrigerant allowance noted at the bottom of the schedule ($11 per lb. per ton) in addition to, or included in, the labor allowance amount? And how does that amount apply to my 3.5 ton and 5 ton units? In other words, what does "per lb. per ton" mean?

[ChaseAir]

If you pay anything you are doing better than some of this junk out there that doesnt pay a dime when 8% of their coils fail in the first year....

Bottom line is people should not shop equipment so much as the company installing it because that is who you will deal with for the next ten years.

WF has a neat epoxy coil that everyone should use I wonder what their coil failure rate is?

And here's another 2 cents: by trying to make these things more efficient, they have made the coils so thin that they fail much more than they used to. I wonder how many of you people complaining about your air conditioner vote for environmental wackos who legislate this junk. How can leaking coils be more efficient?? The cure is worse than the disease.

[Bergy]

Thank you, Bergy, for explaining the the strange "Paradise" reference. Except it isn't Paradise, it's Enertech! That must be the company in Canada that replaced the leaky coils!? Is it just me, or is this all rather confusing?

Ok, if I am sifting through all the information correctly, I think our systems are indeed Waterfurnace, by default. That's what the two local dealers thought, too. But it sounds like the warranty does not vest with WF, but with Paradise, which is now Enertech? Enertech is in Canada (?) so they may have different manufacturing and consumer standards? Just wondering, since I do not live in Canada, but in the USA. The inside sticker on our units still say "Indiana."

It further seems that the installing dealer, who never asked us anything about any extended warranties, could have bought a longer-than-one-year warranty, but didn't. The Paradise (now "Enertech") warranty could have been upgraded with another company called Equigard. At least, I think this is right. Like I said, this is all pretty confusing for me. We now have two more new new names, Enertech and Equigard, in addition to Paradise. I wonder what the next name that pops up will be? One thing is for sure, our two systems have a pedigree with more names than Secretariat had in his pedigree. Ha!

Williamsburg;

Enertech contracted with WFI to produce equipment for them. Enertech sold them under the names "GeoComfort" and "Paradise". They were exactly the same as a Water Furnace unit, only the name had been changed. This is standard industry practice. At the time, WFI's warranty was 1 yr parts and 5 yrs compressor so that is the same warranty Enertech used. All of Enertech's dealers and, as far as I know, all of WFI's dealers could offer an extended warranty through "Equiguard". Equiguard is well know for extended warranties on all kinds of home equipment, Ground Source Heat Pumps among them. We offered 5 yr parts AND labor contracts as well as 10 yr parts AND labor contracts to our customers. I know it can be confusing... You may want to contact Enertech with your Model and Serial numbers just to verify it is one of their units and what the warranty is.

Enertech MFG. no longer works with WFI because they now manufacture their own units under the name "Hydron Module" and "GeoComfort". Their web site is...
www.enertechmfg.com or www.geocomfort.com.

Hope this helps

Bergy

[ChaseAir]

What criteria did you base your decision to go with the installing contractor on?

did you want the best product, the best service, or the lowest price? You can't have all three you know?

Waterfurnace is just a manufacturer, your contractor let you down. Whyy did you trust him again? Did he have written guarantees and good references? How can you be upset at Waterfurnace when you made the decision to go with a guy who doesn't cover a labor warranty?

What did your contract with him say? Is he really telling you he won't fix it if he had in writing that he would?

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

The refrigerant allowance, included in the warranty purchased with your WaterFurnace equipment, is in addition to the labor allowance provided to the contractor. When a contractor files a claim on a refrigerant component, the contractor receives $11.00 for each ton; therefore, if you have a refrigerant claim on your 5 ton unit, your contractor would receive a $55.00 credit.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

Chase Air,

We are continually looking for ways to improve the quality of our products. As of March 1, 2010, we announced the release of our new coil coating method, FormiShieldPlus. All coils with FormiShieldPlus are double coated and more durable over a wider range of corrosive agents. WaterFurnace is the only company in the HVAC industry to use this process, and it is an immense quality improvement over other coil protection methods. All residential products shipped after March 1, 2010 will come standard with FormiShieldPlus.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[ChaseAir]

That double epoxy coating sounds nice. Do you know what your failure rate on coils is?

The Goodman//Amana brand last year had over 7% failure in the first year. This is my own unscientific estimate. I believe it may be more. We installed no more than 100 of their units last year and I need both hands to count the failures.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the reason they fail is formicary corrosion, thin copper (to achieve the wonderful efficiency rating) that is rifled on the inside easily creating small holes.

In effect the mandate for efficiency has created a weak spot in the unit evaporator coil making them fail a whole lot more..................

Isn't govt regulation wonderful?

[FL_green_home]

WF Inc,

My installer is here today replacing the coils. How can I verify that the replacement coils have the FormiSheildPlus coating. I just asked him if they did and he said "I don't know."

[WF_Inc]

Bergy,

The explanation you provided is correct. However, EnerTech did not take over the Paradise line until March 14, 2005. Before that time, Paradise equipment was controlled by other OEM customers and distributors. Williamsburg’s Paradise equipment was shipped to an OEM distributor prior to EnerTech.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

We have verified that the order placed for your replacement coils specified that they must be FormiShieldPlus. Please find images attached showing the location of the FormiShieldPlus stamp on the coils.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[FL_green_home]

Thank you WF Inc for your quick responses. The installer is in the process of replacing the coils now. I also verified that they will be shipping the leaking coils back to WF for inspection.

[Williamsburg]

Waterfurnace,

Ok, so I think I understand now. Bergy explained it in simple terms, that I could understand. (Thanks again, Bergy.)

It's like my old Dodge Colt. My car was actually a Mitsubishi Mirage with a Dodge Colt sticker. If you opened the hood, it said "Mitsubishi made in Japan" and had Japanese characters in the label. If you looked at the name on the outside it said "Dodge Colt" and it was imported by Chrysler, so it was called a Dodge Colt, and Dodge provided the warranties and Dealer maintenance, not Mistubishi. If you stood a Mirage and a Colt side-by-side, you could not tell the difference, but officially one was a "Dodge" and one was a "Mitsubishi."

No wonder both local HVAC people said our units were "Waterfurnace." Our units were manufactured by WF, but sold by a different company--under the Paradise name. You say tomato and I say Tomoto. It's not a Mitsubishi, it's a Dodge. I think I finally understand. WF-made equipment, but because it does not have the official WF label and license and was sold by a different supplier, it comes without the WF official name, warranty or support system. It is Paradise...only there is no more Paradise.

OK, so that is part of the bad news. The other the bad news is that original installer, who contracted with our builder and not directly with us, no longer has anything to do with Paradise or the succeeding Enertech. (I believe the installer told me they now sell a brand called Florida Heat Pump, or something like that...not sure. They seemed to like that brand a great deal.)

The original installer installed the replacement coils. After one year if those fail, it sounds like we are back in the weeds. Our new local HVAC company/WF dealer could not give us a better replacement warranty (1 year) and would have charged us more to replace the coils, so we went back to the original installer for the repairs.

On the up side, our equipment was born in a WF factory, and you say your equipment is superior, so maybe the only thing that should keep me up at night (at least for now) is the potential for the air coils to fail again in the next few years. Our new maintenance contract is with a WF dealer, so they will know this Paradise equipment, and will be able to maintain it properly. Other than the coils, and some air in the lines the first spring after we moved in, the system has been very good.

Waterfurnace, let me ask you a couple of questions, if I may. Since we are now a Paradise owner without any warranties to speak of or even an original dealer to go back to, even if you do test the coils and you do confirm that they are leaking and/or that they have the manufacturing defect that my husband, the installer, and the WF Dealer suspect they do, what good will it do? I mean, what happens next? The point of shipping them back to you was to show you what went wrong, so your engineers could fix the design. You do not claim them as yours. Paradise is a ghost. Does the ghost care? Do you care?

If our current replacement coils fail again, and I really fear that they may, is there a WF epoxy-coated coil that would fit into our current system? Like a "Mitsubishi Mirage" part in my "Dodge Colt" would have fit? If not, my husband says that if the coils fail again, he wants to tear both systems out and start over with new, different systems, and a new local HVAC company. He is an engineer. That does not reflect well on your industry as a whole. We SHOULD NOT be to that point, at this point. I now wish we had just installed super high efficiency gas systems. They cost a bit more to run, but they last for decades. My husband was the GT true believer, not me. He still says the GT thing is a good idea, and can and should work better than the gas systems. I'm not convinced now. It sounds like a lot of coils leak, if the people posting on this forum are to be believed. FL Gree Home has official WF coils that are leaking, I believe. Leaking coils appear to be an issue--at least, it looks that way to me.

For us this is not about blame or reimbursement or I told you so. We just want the darn coils to work for longer than a few years, especially when we paid big upfront costs in order to save money over the long run. No one can save money if they are shelling out for big repairs every few years.

Respectfully,
Williamsburg (Having wandered out of the maze only to now be wandering in the desert)

[FL_green_home]

Installers have been here for almost 7 hours... they ran out of refrigerant and had to leave, go across town, and come back again. Now they are telling me that the plastic drain pan on my 5 ton unit is cracked and will have to be replaced before that unit can be operational. The pan wasn't leaking before they started replacing the coils so I assume it must have cracked when they removed the old coil. They said that they would not charge me for it but that they will have to order a replacement pan and didn't know how many days it would take to get here.

Sure am glad I have the 10-year "Worry Free" warranty.

[ChaseAir]

Be thankful it is not 95 degrees out. Sorry, I always want to say things like that to my clients and can't. It just feels good.

[WF_Inc]

ChaseAir,

You are correct. The majority of air coil leaks experienced in the HVAC industry today are the result of Formicary Corrosion. WaterFurnace has been a leader in assisting our customers to resolve this issue. The FormiShield failure rate across the country has been very low on an annual basis, but we are constantly striving for improvement and as of March 1, 2010 have converted to the Plus for added protection and durability.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

Williamsburg,

You are correct. In our previous post we discussed coils leaking due to Formicary Corrosion. This is an industry wide issue, and WaterFurnace is constantly striving for improvement in protection and durability.

By testing the coils, we can determine the cause of failure and provide you with information to prevent future failures. If the coils happen to fail again, we can work with our vendors to make replacement coils available with the additional protective coating. If you choose to replace your equipment, we would be more than happy to work with you and your contractor.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Popoff]

Forgive me for being off topic here but I can't find the appropriate place to post this. I hope one of the more experienced people here will take pity and help me out.

When I try to access a pdf on this forum, such as in post 51 above, I get the message that follows.

"Popoff, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation."

I would be most appreciative if someone could tell me how to fix this or get in touch with a moderator to ask for their assistance.

BTW, I bit the bullet and signed the contract for my Envision system so Water Furnace, as your newest customer, when do I get my drum roll and ball cap? (-:

[WF_Inc]

Popoff,

We would suggest taking advantage of the 30% federal tax credit. Also, check with your state government, local government, and utility company for any tax credits or rebates they may be offering. Please send us your address so that we can send you a ball cap.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Popoff]

Thanks WF! The tax credits (fed & state) are what's making this purchase possible.

I want to take you up on your ball cap offer. Is there an address, other than this public forum, to where I can send my name and address?