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  1. #53
    Waterfurnace,

    Ok, so I think I understand now. Bergy explained it in simple terms, that I could understand. (Thanks again, Bergy.)

    It's like my old Dodge Colt. My car was actually a Mitsubishi Mirage with a Dodge Colt sticker. If you opened the hood, it said "Mitsubishi made in Japan" and had Japanese characters in the label. If you looked at the name on the outside it said "Dodge Colt" and it was imported by Chrysler, so it was called a Dodge Colt, and Dodge provided the warranties and Dealer maintenance, not Mistubishi. If you stood a Mirage and a Colt side-by-side, you could not tell the difference, but officially one was a "Dodge" and one was a "Mitsubishi."

    No wonder both local HVAC people said our units were "Waterfurnace." Our units were manufactured by WF, but sold by a different company--under the Paradise name. You say tomato and I say Tomoto. It's not a Mitsubishi, it's a Dodge. I think I finally understand. WF-made equipment, but because it does not have the official WF label and license and was sold by a different supplier, it comes without the WF official name, warranty or support system. It is Paradise...only there is no more Paradise.

    OK, so that is part of the bad news. The other the bad news is that original installer, who contracted with our builder and not directly with us, no longer has anything to do with Paradise or the succeeding Enertech. (I believe the installer told me they now sell a brand called Florida Heat Pump, or something like that...not sure. They seemed to like that brand a great deal.)

    The original installer installed the replacement coils. After one year if those fail, it sounds like we are back in the weeds. Our new local HVAC company/WF dealer could not give us a better replacement warranty (1 year) and would have charged us more to replace the coils, so we went back to the original installer for the repairs.

    On the up side, our equipment was born in a WF factory, and you say your equipment is superior, so maybe the only thing that should keep me up at night (at least for now) is the potential for the air coils to fail again in the next few years. Our new maintenance contract is with a WF dealer, so they will know this Paradise equipment, and will be able to maintain it properly. Other than the coils, and some air in the lines the first spring after we moved in, the system has been very good.

    Waterfurnace, let me ask you a couple of questions, if I may. Since we are now a Paradise owner without any warranties to speak of or even an original dealer to go back to, even if you do test the coils and you do confirm that they are leaking and/or that they have the manufacturing defect that my husband, the installer, and the WF Dealer suspect they do, what good will it do? I mean, what happens next? The point of shipping them back to you was to show you what went wrong, so your engineers could fix the design. You do not claim them as yours. Paradise is a ghost. Does the ghost care? Do you care?

    If our current replacement coils fail again, and I really fear that they may, is there a WF epoxy-coated coil that would fit into our current system? Like a "Mitsubishi Mirage" part in my "Dodge Colt" would have fit? If not, my husband says that if the coils fail again, he wants to tear both systems out and start over with new, different systems, and a new local HVAC company. He is an engineer. That does not reflect well on your industry as a whole. We SHOULD NOT be to that point, at this point. I now wish we had just installed super high efficiency gas systems. They cost a bit more to run, but they last for decades. My husband was the GT true believer, not me. He still says the GT thing is a good idea, and can and should work better than the gas systems. I'm not convinced now. It sounds like a lot of coils leak, if the people posting on this forum are to be believed. FL Gree Home has official WF coils that are leaking, I believe. Leaking coils appear to be an issue--at least, it looks that way to me.

    For us this is not about blame or reimbursement or I told you so. We just want the darn coils to work for longer than a few years, especially when we paid big upfront costs in order to save money over the long run. No one can save money if they are shelling out for big repairs every few years.

    Respectfully,
    Williamsburg (Having wandered out of the maze only to now be wandering in the desert)

  2. #54
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    12
    Installers have been here for almost 7 hours... they ran out of refrigerant and had to leave, go across town, and come back again. Now they are telling me that the plastic drain pan on my 5 ton unit is cracked and will have to be replaced before that unit can be operational. The pan wasn't leaking before they started replacing the coils so I assume it must have cracked when they removed the old coil. They said that they would not charge me for it but that they will have to order a replacement pan and didn't know how many days it would take to get here.

    Sure am glad I have the 10-year "Worry Free" warranty.

  3. #55
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    579
    Be thankful it is not 95 degrees out. Sorry, I always want to say things like that to my clients and can't. It just feels good.

  4. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Posts
    97
    ChaseAir,

    You are correct. The majority of air coil leaks experienced in the HVAC industry today are the result of Formicary Corrosion. WaterFurnace has been a leader in assisting our customers to resolve this issue. The FormiShield failure rate across the country has been very low on an annual basis, but we are constantly striving for improvement and as of March 1, 2010 have converted to the Plus for added protection and durability.

    WaterFurnace International, Inc.

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Posts
    97
    Williamsburg,

    You are correct. In our previous post we discussed coils leaking due to Formicary Corrosion. This is an industry wide issue, and WaterFurnace is constantly striving for improvement in protection and durability.

    By testing the coils, we can determine the cause of failure and provide you with information to prevent future failures. If the coils happen to fail again, we can work with our vendors to make replacement coils available with the additional protective coating. If you choose to replace your equipment, we would be more than happy to work with you and your contractor.

    WaterFurnace International, Inc.

  6. #58
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    5
    Forgive me for being off topic here but I can't find the appropriate place to post this. I hope one of the more experienced people here will take pity and help me out.

    When I try to access a pdf on this forum, such as in post 51 above, I get the message that follows.

    "Popoff, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

    Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
    If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation."

    I would be most appreciative if someone could tell me how to fix this or get in touch with a moderator to ask for their assistance.

    BTW, I bit the bullet and signed the contract for my Envision system so Water Furnace, as your newest customer, when do I get my drum roll and ball cap? (-:

  7. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Posts
    97
    Popoff,

    We would suggest taking advantage of the 30% federal tax credit. Also, check with your state government, local government, and utility company for any tax credits or rebates they may be offering. Please send us your address so that we can send you a ball cap.

    WaterFurnace International, Inc.

  8. #60
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    5
    Thanks WF! The tax credits (fed & state) are what's making this purchase possible.

    I want to take you up on your ball cap offer. Is there an address, other than this public forum, to where I can send my name and address?

  9. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Posts
    97
    Popoff,

    Please visit our website, www.waterfurnace.com, and click on “Contact Us” at the top right corner. Under “Email Us,” choose the option stating that you own WaterFurnace equipment. Once you choose “Submit,” we will receive an email with your information.

    WaterFurnace International, Inc.

  10. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Posts
    97
    FL green home,

    We have received your coils back for testing. Once we have received the test results, we will contact you directly to review those.

    WaterFurnace International, Inc.

  11. #63
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    12
    Thank you WF Inc. I will be most interested to know what caused the failure.

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Lake Geneva, WI
    Posts
    210
    WF Inc

    I don't want to hijack this thread, but it seems that Formicary Corrosion came into heavy concern about what, 6-7 years ago.

    Do you think that there is a greater problem in the so-called "Chinese Drywall " regions, more so then the rest of the country?

    Or do you think that normal common household chemical and sulfur water areas are still a major concern?

    If so, is it safe to say, that the problem is from the exterior through the copper pipe or joints? ( In your research? )

    Nice to see that WaterFurnace is trying to help with this problem ( with coating the coils) and with this customer.

    Thanks Jack
    • Today is Tomorrow's Yesterday


    • The Quality of Work, doesn't begin with the Lowest Price!!!

  13. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Posts
    97
    jdh,

    Formicary Corrosion is caused by contaminants in the air that collect on the coil. During the cooling cycle, condensation forms on the indoor coils. When the contaminants are exposed to the moisture they turn into acids. The progression of the corrosion is from the exterior of the tube inward, eating away at the copper, until penetration occurs and a leak results.

    Any time there is a coil failure, whether it is due to Formicary Corrosion or not, it is of major concern to WaterFurnace. Unfortunately, at this time we cannot accurately answer your question as to where the greatest concern lies, since we do not have enough tangible information. WaterFurnace, as well as other manufacturers, is highly concerned with failures caused by Formicary Corrosion. Please be reassured that we are continuously striving for improvement and protection against this industry wide issue.

    WaterFurnace International, Inc.

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