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  1. #92
    The coils on the downstairs unit have failed, once again. (I have attempted to quote the original post with this message.) If it does not work, search on my messages posted by Williamsburg from last year.

    My husband and the current HVAC company want to yank out both geothermal systems and send them to the dump, even though they are about 6 years old. Talk about a waste of money and anguish...

    Has anyone had any experience with Climatemaster residential systems?

    My vote is to forget geothermal and install high-efficiency conventional systems. They seem to go forever.

    Williamsburg
    (Who thinks geothermal is for the birds)

  2. #93
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    17

    Geo system

    Every time that I've seem a heatexchanger on a Geo go out is because the loop is not done correctly. I would be more than happy to help any way. My email is kellerhvac@gmail.com. Do you know how the loops are laid out or anything like that? And climatemaster is a good unit by the way. Not what I sell, but a good unit never the less.

  3. #94
    WF Inc,

    I am a homeowner with a GT unit just over 4 years old. Model:NDV064a111ctr
    S/N xe3205. The installer, JK Mechanical (Willow Street, PA) has just informed me that my coil needs replacing and will cost about $1100. This makes at least 5 times in over 4 years that I have had faulty parts replaced or had the installer out to correct faults in the system.
    In the Waterfurnace literature, your company seems to pride itself on reliability, a comprehensive warranty, and a "worry-free" experience. My experience with your product has been different. Judging from the contents of this thread, Waterfurnace has issues regarding the coils in its units and I am now facing a hefty repair bill to replace what seems to be a common problem with your product.
    Your company should be receiving a call from the service manager at my installer this afternoon. I am requesting that you do the right thing, and cover this repair bill in its entirety.
    Thanks for participating in this forum and giving us an opportunity to communicate with Waterfurnace directly.

  4. #95
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    264
    I was told wf coils have an 80% failure rate in Florida. It is many times caused by formicary corrosion. Loops do not cause coil failure. Get the tin plated version..demand it.

  5. #96

    Coil Failure - Yet Again

    We had Bud's Heating remove both units a couple of weeks ago. There were Paradise units, which I understand were made in a Water Furnace plant. They were about 6 years old, and cost us $30,000.

    The new units are Climatemaster and have a 10 year warranty. They also cost us $30,000. Our HVAC geothermal has now cost us over $60,000. I asked Buds to return the defective units to Extreme Climates, the people who installed the Paradise units for our builder about 6 years ago. I hope they did indeed take them back to EC. Bud's specifically recommended Climatemaster for the replacement, and not WF.

    The Federal Government is giving out tax credits to encourage people to install geothermal, yet no one is tracking the failure rates. I think I will be contacting my congressman to let him know about our personal experiences.

  6. #97
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Pa.
    Posts
    1,038
    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsburg View Post
    We had Bud's Heating remove both units a couple of weeks ago. There were Paradise units, which I understand were made in a Water Furnace plant. They were about 6 years old, and cost us $30,000.

    The new units are Climatemaster and have a 10 year warranty. They also cost us $30,000. Our HVAC geothermal has now cost us over $60,000. I asked Buds to return the defective units to Extreme Climates, the people who installed the Paradise units for our builder about 6 years ago. I hope they did indeed take them back to EC. Bud's specifically recommended Climatemaster for the replacement, and not WF.

    The Federal Government is giving out tax credits to encourage people to install geothermal, yet no one is tracking the failure rates. I think I will be contacting my congressman to let him know about our personal experiences.
    You should be happy with CM......30,000 seems like an awful lot to just replace the units or did you have earth loop work done also?

  7. #98
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    264
    We removed 3 geothermals today...the 1985 models outlived the 1995 model by more than ten years....the 1995 had been dead for awhile....leaking water coils with open loop system.
    Old style lasted 25 yrs. New style lasted 10-15....both brands were fhp(bosch)

  8. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by farbeondriven View Post
    You should be happy with CM......30,000 seems like an awful lot to just replace the units or did you have earth loop work done also?
    No loops--they were installed by Toano Well and are good. Just an upstairs and a downstairs unit.

  9. #100
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Posts
    97
    dship,

    The majority of air coil leaks are the result of an industry wide issue called Formicary Corrosion, which is caused by indoor air quality. Carrier performed a study of Formicary Corrosion, which we have attached for your review.

    As a leader in the industry, we started coating our coils, to assist customers in fighting Formicary Corrosion in 2001. We were the first manufacturer to offer this new technology. As of March 1, 2010, we began using the FormiShieldPlus coating process in an effort to prevent Formicary Corrosion. All coils with the FormiShieldPlus are double coated and more durable over a wider range of corrosive agents. WaterFurnace is one of the first manufacturers in the industry to use this process and we feel that it will protect against Formicary Corrosion and prolong the life of the coils.

    As for your warranty, the labor allowance for all repairs to our units is a set flat fee. We use industry accepted flat rate times and an average hourly rate for all repairs. The rate we pay does not vary from one contractor to the next. If the amount provided does not cover the contractor’s normal fee, or if it takes longer on a particular repair than the flat fee allows, the contractor makes the decision about whether or not they will pass through the cost to the consumer. The contractor is an independent business man and not under our control. We regularly check our warranty allowance with those of our competitors and find that we consistently cover more items for longer periods and at more generous rates than our competition.

    WaterFurnace International, Inc.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #101
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    264
    I thought formicary corrosion was caused by manufacturers using copper and aluminum coils when they knew the very well the type of environment the coils would be in.

    You know I'm just a layman here, but if you used aluminum coils, you wpuld not have this problem. By the way, tin plating does not solve the problem either.

    So, you can make a coil that is indestructible. Yet you continue to use an inferior one, that is cutting edge.

    The nice thing about coil failure is that it destroys other components.

    Waterfurnace in North Florida does not pay their warranty. We had this experience.

    I will never install them again.

  11. #102
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Pa.
    Posts
    1,038
    Ive noticed that climate master has the all aluminum air coil.....they used to have one that was coated.....was that the tin coating? Was all black

    formicary corrosion? is that fancy words for volitile organic compounds? or V.O.C.'s

  12. #103
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    264

    , i use

    The coated coils are epoxy coated.

    Tin plated has the look of aluminum on the back of the coil. Carrier STILL has premature cool failure with the tinplating process.

    Aluminum seems to be the indestructible coil. Can anyone else witness to this? I have never seen one leak in 10 yrs. I know people who have been in the trade 30 yrs and never seen one leak yet.

    If I hear one more manufacturer rep blame "formicary corrosion" for their failure to use a coil that is not susceptible to this type of corrosion, I may hurl.

  13. #104
    WFInc,

    Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I find it to be disappointing and insufficient. Whatever the reason for WaterFurnace's coil failure problems, my experience (and the end result) is that your company has manufactured an unreliable HVAC unit. Two blower motors, a cracked and leaking drain pan, and now a coil have all failed in just over four years. However, it is your response to the coil issue that I find most troubling. Whether the issue is blamed on formicary corrosion due to the "air quality" in consumers' homes, poor manufacturing techniques, inadequate coatings, or just plain substandard copper, the fact remains that coil failure in a four year old unit is not normal wear and tear.
    In my job as an airline pilot, I fly with different crewmembers almost every time I work. We have hours to just talk about everything under the sun, and our experiences with cars, families, schools, and HOUSES are frequent topics of conversation. In the past, I have always extolled the virtues of geothermal HVAC because of the many benefits it offers. I will continue to do so, but will now have to recommend against purchasing a WaterFurnace unit.
    It is unfortunate that WaterFurnace has elected to go with the CYA approach and lose at least my future recommendations. Thankfully, my installer has agreed to take up your slack and cover the repair bill. Was it worth it?

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