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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7

    Intermittent Pilot Stays Lit

    Hi,

    I have a freestanding gas stove by Heat&Glo, it's the Paloma model with the Intellifire ignition system. It's controlled by a wall mounted thermostat.

    Symptoms:
    1) the pilot light stays lit at all times instead of being intermittent. If I shut off the gas, unplug the unit, then restore power and gas...there is no pilot. But once I turn the unit on, the pilot is on for good.

    2) with thermostat set below room temp and set to "off", flame pulses across the manifold with a 2-3 second delay between pulses. Almost like the unit is being turned on/off in rapid succession.

    Everything worked great for the first two years of service. I recently had the dealer come out to service based on these symptoms. They replaced the Control Module DSI (whatever that means) but the problem persists.

    Is there an obvious cause? I'll be calling the dealer back out for service, but would like to have some background info before doing so.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Matt

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    NY NY
    Posts
    181
    After review of the electrical drawings for the Direct Spark Igniter ( DSI ) , and your stove installation manual I offer the following.

    A defective igniter would be a likely cause of the condition. However, there are other possible causes of the condition.

    I would ask the service technician to pay attention to the gas valve and the wiring to the valve.
    Local 30 New York, New York Operating Engineer

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7
    Thanks for your reply KD. Could a short in the wires from the thermostat also be a possible cause?

    Matt

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    1,078
    First of all I would call the dealer and let them know the part you paid for (I assume you paid for it?) did not fix anything so you would like your old part back and a refund.

    I have seen this problem happen on the IPI systems (its not DSI FYI). I assume you do not have a multi function wall switch with an option to turn on just the pilot. Sounds like you just have a basic stat. A trained tech would be able to check if the module is still sending voltage to the pilot solenoid after the unit is turned off. My guess would be the module stops sending voltage, but the solenoid is sticking open. Technically you would need a new valve to fix this, but a good tech may be able to fix without replacing the whole valve or by using a spare part he has saved from another repair.

    I highly recommend you call your dealer back, if they were there recently and you paid them (to not fix anything) I would expect them to return for either no charge or a small fee, and give you credit for the part that did not fix anything. Did the last tech ever test the unit after they thought they fixed it? If they had turned the unit on and off 10 times or so, at least once the pilot would have stuck on as it is for you, indicating they did not fix the problem with the module... actually if they knew how to test it properly they would have never put a new module on it in the first place. Its unfortunate, but true.

    Notice I did not give you any specific info on how to test or do any repairs, this is not a DIY site. I see you plan to have your dealer so the repairs so I hope this info helps you help them find the problem. Again, unfortunate you need to help them fix your fireplace, but often times, true.

    One more tidbit, I just re-read the part about the pulsing and understand what you are saying. At a glance I would also first look at the valve for this problem. Other possibility would be too high of an inlet gas pressure, or lastly a bad module (already ruled out).

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    S.E. Pa
    Posts
    6,142

    Cool Intellifire system

    Not sure how you are describing it but you do understand that as long as you make a call for heat, the IPI pilot remains lit. It does Not light to ignite the main burner then extinguish--it reamain on as long as the main burner is lit. When the unit is switched off, there should be NO gas escaping into the combustion chamber. If it pulses while burning and you have a combination of high inlet pressure with LP gas and a low manifold pressure (flame height), it will pulse. If it leaks gas when it is shut off that is a major problem where you should immediately shut the gas off until repaired.

    No DIY advice here so we cannot get into things for a qualified tech to check. I can say he should boil it down to its most simple elements then see if it still has problems. A step by step comprehensive approach should be used when troubleshooting.

    Hearthman

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7
    Hearthman and JTP - thanks so much for the insight. This will definitely help me talk with the service technician. I just need to phrase it in a way that doesn't make me sound like I'm trying to do his job.

    The original repair was done last May. It hasn't been used since then so I'm just now finding out that the problem is still there. Probably too long ago for me to expect any refund on the part.

    Thanks again.

    Matt

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7

    Update

    The service technician came back out today and replaced a diaphram in the valve.

    He said the inlet pressure was too high (6.0" water column) and suggested to prevent blowing out another diaphram, that I have the utility company come out and reduce it to 3.5" water column at the meter.

    Would 3.5" water column be sufficient to feed all other gas appliances in my house under full demand? It's an 800 sq. foot cabin, gas oven/stovetop, 60 gallon gas water heater, and this Paloma gas stove (no other gas appliances).

    Thanks,
    Matt

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,458
    Quote Originally Posted by RioVino View Post
    The service technician came back out today and replaced a diaphram in the valve.

    He said the inlet pressure was too high (6.0" water column) and suggested to prevent blowing out another diaphram, that I have the utility company come out and reduce it to 3.5" water column at the meter.

    Would 3.5" water column be sufficient to feed all other gas appliances in my house under full demand? It's an 800 sq. foot cabin, gas oven/stovetop, 60 gallon gas water heater, and this Paloma gas stove (no other gas appliances).

    Thanks,
    Matt
    Makes no sense, here 7" is standard delivery pressure. Do not let him adjst the regulator.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    447
    Quote Originally Posted by mike3 View Post
    Makes no sense, here 7" is standard delivery pressure. Do not let him adjst the regulator.
    7"wc is standard house line pressure here as well, 3.5"wc is a typical manifold pressure. I agree with Mike, do not let him adjust the service regulator.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7

    Update

    The gas company came out earlier and confirmed what you're saying, 7"wc is the standard.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    S.E. Pa
    Posts
    6,142

    Cool pressure confusion

    No! Read the manual and rating plate on the appliance! It states the MINIMUM inlet pressure is 5.0 wci and 3.5 wci manifold pressure on HI. If you turned it down to 3.5 wci inlet you would most lifely get a severe delayed ignition which could blow out the glass and hurt someone. Bad advice.

    You are correct in that the stated inlet pressure must be capable of being delivered with the house under full load. Also, add up the input BTU/hr ratings of all appliances to confirm your meter can handle that volume of gas in CFH.

    It takes pressure in PSI to blow the diaphragms in gas combination valves. 6.0 wci is less than 1/4 psi and will NOT hurt a normally operating valve. Remember, there is one diaphragm in the pressure regulator and one in the back of the valve on most combination valves. Only the manifold pressure regulator (flame height control) is field serviceable and that means only replacement of the regulator as a unit with a new gasket then leak check.

    If you locate your serial number you can contact HG Technical Support for straight answers if you don't trust your technician. They will start a case file and track any problems you report with this unit.

    Tell your tech he should only replace parts when there is a clear reason to.

    You still didn't clarify what this is doing. Can you answer my questions in my first post? TIA,

    Hearthman

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7
    Hearthman,

    You're right, according to the install manual:

    Min Inlet Pressure: 5" wc
    Max Inlet Pressure: 7" wc (though valve capable of up to 14" wc)
    Manifold Pressue: 3.5" wc

    Considering the service tech wanted to have the gas company reduce entire house pressure to 3.5", I've lost confidence in him.

    Here's what it's doing: Turn stove on and let it run for say 30 minutes. Turn stove off at the wall thermostat (no more call for heat). Flames across manifold go out as expected but IPI pilot stays lit (not just for a few minutes but indefinitely...for days). In addition, with stove turned off and IPI pilot still incorrectly lit, flame will pulse across the manifold in 2-3 second intervals, with the sound of combustion at the onset of each pulse.

    He claims to have replaced a diaphram in the valve with a used one he had on the truck (to save the cost of a new valve). Unfortunately my property manager was there with him and not me. I'm inclined to involve HG Tech Support and have a different service company replace the entire valve.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    1,078
    The diaphragm INSIDE the valve is not serviceable, the entire valve would need to be replaced if that's the problem. This tech is totally useless, see if you can get someone who knows how to test and troubleshoot an IPI system out there.

    He may have replaced the NG manifold regulator from a used item, this is acceptable... my techs often do this when they don't know whats wrong and just start "throwing" parts at it and hope it works. They don't really know how to properly troubleshoot things all the time either, and don't like when I try to help.

    So it sounds like you are still having the problem?

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