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  1. #66
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    22
    Open question: Is "3 heat/2 cool" the correct system type for a 1-stage heat pump and 2-stage furnace, using a Lennox Comfortsense 5000?

  2. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8

    Lennox G71mpp

    G71MPP is not heat pump, it is high efficiency Variable Capacity Gas Furnace.
    Two-Stage Gas Valve
    Variable Speed Blower Motor

    All Dip switch are set Down (off I think)

    Capital "H"
    LED is displaying H1A622 what does this mean?


    Thermastat only using 5 wires
    W, W2 , R, G, Y

    ADam

  3. #68
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
    Posts
    56

    Cool

    adamp,

    I don't know why you want to Hijack this Thread.

    You should start a new one, or search against your issue before posting at all.

    Check out this Thread. It may be helpful:

    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=401622

  4. #69
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
    Posts
    56

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by thekenward View Post
    Open question: Is "3 heat/2 cool" the correct system type for a 1-stage heat pump and 2-stage furnace, using a Lennox Comfortsense 5000?

    Agreed, and also the Cycles per Hour setting...

  5. #70
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
    Posts
    56

    Cool

    Well, I bit the bullet and called the Contractor.

    The last straw was at about 8:30 this morning when I glanced at the Stat's outside temperature and it was 36 F. Then less than an hour later I glance at it and it's 49 F. Now I know outside temps will swing, but on an overcast day here in Lotusland it doesn't move like that.

    According to the Weather forecast it's supposed to swing between a high of 46 F and a low of 34 F in the next 24 Hours => not in one hour.

    The Contractor is very responsive as they said they will be here between 2 & 4 pm today. (Can't beat that!) I decided to ensure I got someone on top of their game with respect to the Tech and asked a few questions. The poor receptionist / service scheduler was quite lost on coefficient of performance (she never heard of it before) so I had to explain it to her. (The Blind leading the Blind...)

    So I've made a note to ask about:

    1- System Type (0170 - Set to 12 - 3 Heat / 2 Cool Heat Pump with Aux Heat) just so I understand why.

    2- Cycles per Hour (0260 - Set to Standard Efficiency fossil fuel Furnaces when I've got a High Eff. G61.) I really don't know what the imapct of this setting will do. But...

    3- Heat Pump Compressor Lock out (0350 - set to 35 F). How did they arrive at this number? Science Please...

    4- Adaptive Intelligent Recovery (0530)- This is disabled - Why? I would think we be using the "brains" of the Stat to learn the enviroment and adapt. My Old dinosaur Stat did that.

    5- Heating Mode Extended Fan On (0650) - just want clarification as to benefits / issues.


    While I was writing this I got an email back from Lennox! It says:

    Jim,

    I have requested an extended ratings document from engineering on this product. As soon as I get this document I will forward it to you.

    It should answer most of your questions.

    Thanks,

    Bill


    So things may be coming together soon. I will advise.

  6. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    22
    Jim,

    That is fantastic. Please let us know what transpires. If the tech makes any changes, I may want to contact them as well.

  7. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
    Posts
    56

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by thekenward View Post
    Jim,

    That is fantastic. Please let us know what transpires. If the tech makes any changes, I may want to contact them as well.
    Well the Tech just left. He changed out the Probe but advised that the new one probably won't be much better. (The connections were twist on marrettes). The old probe was inside the Heat Pump Case, but extended down through a small hole but was touching the concrete covered styrofoam pad they used to mount the unit; and it was a bit wet / muddy. He didn't like that location and moved it to a "dry" location near the Starting Capacitor for the compressor motor.

    He said he wasn't 100% sure but that probe has nothing to do with the operation of the Thermostat / Heat Pump / Furnace. He said there is an entirely separate (and different looking) thermocouple probe that is connected directly to the heat pump sharing a common pair of wires with a probe on the compressor that controls defrost; all of which later connects to the Furnace (I was not shown this probe nor this wiring).

    I advised I was skeptical that Lennox would bother pulling separate wires all the way from the second floor of my house, down to the basement, through the funace area, and outside terminating inside the Heat Pump => just to give me (The Homeowner) and inaccurate indication of temperature. He said he was going to follow up with the Lennox Tech and make sure he was right as I got him to thinking...

    He also advised:

    1- System Type (0170 - Set to 12 - 3 Heat / 2 Cool Heat Pump with Aux Heat) just so I understand why.

    He advised this could be set to 7 - 2 Heat / 1 Cool Heat Pump with Aux Heat and did so => so I assume this originally was in error?? He was at a loss for word as to why the change...He set it to 7.

    2- Cycles per Hour (0260 - Set to Standard Efficiency fossil fuel Furnaces when I've got a High Eff. G61.) I really don't know what the imapct of this setting will do. But...

    He didn't know either, but other changes made in the settings caused this step to be skipped in the sequence, showing it was no longer applicable.

    3- Heat Pump Compressor Lock out (0350 - set to 35 F). How did they arrive at this number? Science Please...

    He had none. It seems it's this Contractor's standard. They don't bother with Energy Audit Reports or Heat Loss numbers. He advised in Ontario with electric back up he's set it all the way down to max out heat pump output.

    4- Adaptive Intelligent Recovery (0530)- This is disabled - Why? I would think we be using the "brains" of the Stat to learn the enviroment and adapt. My Old dinosaur Stat did that.

    He advised I could change this if I wanted the Thermostat to anticipate the setback settings. It's now enabled so it should be warm when my wife gets up at 6 AM to get ready for work.

    5- Heating Mode Extended Fan On (0650) - just want clarification as to benefits / issues.

    He advised this is just to squeeze the last bit of heat out of the heat exchanger prior to shutting off the fan. I left it off pending comments from you folks!!

    Somehow when he was poking at the Stat he advised the backup heat was set to Electric (it wasn't yesterday - or this morning...) and that would cause the unit to act in weird ways. (I think he may have inadvertantly poked the wrong button when looking around --maybe...)

    So anyway, we'll see how it goes. I really think the Temperature Probe question is still outstanding. Maybe a Guru or Mod here will chime in with an opinion or two.

    I await your interesting replies!

  8. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    22
    Hm!

    1. Interesting that he changed the system type. Everything still working well, or have things changed?

    2. There are several codes for setting Cycles per Hour. I'm guessing that one of the others is now set to 5 instead.

    3. If you read the XPG15 manual (that the installer hopefully left for you), it seems to me to indicate that the heat pump won't operate below 32 F anyways (pg. 37, #3) . I could just be interpreting this wrong.

    I've also since been reading that the Comfortsense 5000, when used for these units, doesn't control when the furnace goes into high fire -- that decision is made by the furnace, if the heat demand isn't satisfied after 10 minutes (the delay is set on the furnace's electronics). I've read opinions that it's more desirable to let the stat do that instead of having it timed, but that requires an upgrade to the Comfortsense 7000. The 5000 essentially acts like a 1-stage stat with our 2-stage furnaces. I'm still looking into that one.

    Edited to add:

    I've been talking to another tech on a different forum. (I don't think naming the forum would be in line with hvac-talk.com's rules.) He informs me that the XPG15 has a built-in temperature change over switch which shuts it down at around 32 F, and that the outdoor temp. sensor should be used for display only. He echoed that the settings for the stat as described in the documentation are correct.

  9. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
    Posts
    56

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by thekenward View Post
    Hm!

    1. Interesting that he changed the system type. Everything still working well, or have things changed?

    It's gotten Milder so the Heat Pump is the only thing working now. It seems to be fine.

    2. There are several codes for setting Cycles per Hour. I'm guessing that one of the others is now set to 5 instead.

    3. If you read the XPG15 manual (that the installer hopefully left for you), it seems to me to indicate that the heat pump won't operate below 32 F anyways (pg. 37, #3) . I could just be interpreting this wrong.

    On Page 37 in my Installation Manual (I have no User Manual) it's about Defrost Sensors not operating temperatures.

    I've also since been reading that the Comfortsense 5000, when used for these units, doesn't control when the furnace goes into high fire -- that decision is made by the furnace, if the heat demand isn't satisfied after 10 minutes (the delay is set on the furnace's electronics). I've read opinions that it's more desirable to let the stat do that instead of having it timed, but that requires an upgrade to the Comfortsense 7000. The 5000 essentially acts like a 1-stage stat with our 2-stage furnaces. I'm still looking into that one.

    Edited to add:

    I've been talking to another tech on a different forum. (I don't think naming the forum would be in line with hvac-talk.com's rules.) He informs me that the XPG15 has a built-in temperature change over switch which shuts it down at around 32 F, and that the outdoor temp. sensor should be used for display only. He echoed that the settings for the stat as described in the documentation are correct.

    That doesn't follow the set up on my Brother in Law's 2.5 Ton XPG15 with Electric Aux Heat. It runs down to 23 F (and I've seen it running below freezing). It also doesn't follow Lennox's liturature, brochure's, etc.

    I'm still waitng on the promised Data for the XPG15 from Lennox - 20 days later after they said they'd get it to me...

  10. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    22
    Take a look at Lennox's own doc. for the XPG15: http://tech.lennoxintl.com/PDFs/506212c.pdf to see that the heat pump controls the switchover temperature (pg. 1). If you look through the guide, you can see what the stat's settings should be (pg. 24). Apparently the XPG15 is quite different from Lennox's heat pumps that are not dedicated dual-fuel units. The concern I'd have is that the stat's setting of balance point would conflict with the XPG15's control of switchover.

    The contractor is coming out tomorrow to upgrade me to the ComfortSense 7000, and I'll be hanging around to make sure they set it up according to the manual. I'll let you know how it goes!

  11. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    4,575
    usually the heat pump is allowed to run at the same time as electric back up heat strips.

    it should NOT run at the same time as fossil fuel back up.

  12. #77
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by -Jim- View Post
    That doesn't follow the set up on my Brother in Law's 2.5 Ton XPG15 with Electric Aux Heat.
    Are you sure he has the XPG15? That is supposed to be a dual-fuel unit, not a heat pump with electric backup.

  13. #78
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
    Posts
    56

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by thekenward View Post
    Are you sure he has the XPG15? That is supposed to be a dual-fuel unit, not a heat pump with electric backup.
    Ken,

    You are correct, I called him for clarification to be sure (he's not too technical) it's an XP15-030-230 CBX32MV024/030-230-6. I guess he got confused with the XPG.

    I did get the data from the Gent @ Lennox (almost 2 megs in two spreadsheets.) last night. I'm still digesting the data, but my unit is below and I'm surprised at the output below the 0C / 32 F. I did the COP based on the data (orange column) and see it still amplifies energy far below where I was lead to believe it would. (-29C )

    Of course I could be all wet and if so (hopefully) a Pro here will correct me and get me back on the right track.

    The last Tech that was here said, if it was his unit, he'd crank the Heat Pump setpoint all the way down as if it can't keep up after the 2nd call for heat then the Gas Furnace would kick in. I'm still mulling that over.

    Why did you move to the ComfortSense 7000? How did it go? Did you learn anything new from your installer?
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