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  1. #53
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    Dec 2007
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    here is the brochure that has noise data, basic function/operation info on it;

    http://www.lennox.com/pdfs/brochures...eat%20Pump.pdf

  2. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Jim- View Post
    Thanks! That installation Manual looks far more detailed than my small ~4" x 6" Owners Guide (for Models L5711U and L5732U). I pulled the front of my Stat off the wall to try to find the Model Number (no joy!) and found (P)X4147 which must be another way Lennox references this Stat. I googled it and came up with the outside Probe Manual that connects to it.

    this is a rebranded Honeywell stat with Lennox specific features

    I never measured how long the Pump runs but never thought it was too short or long. It does run longer than the new G61 Furnace => but then it's supposed too. I'll try to remember to time it.

    I'd certainly be interested in any sites to help me in my Quest for good Data.
    .

  3. #55
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by pacnw View Post
    more could be said, but not going to at this point.
    pacnw,

    I appreciate your comments (positive or negative). I like to learn all the time. It seems the "professional" members here have to limit their comments on this Site as to not ruffle the feathers of others; so I appreciate anything you can offer.

    As far as understanding the controls logic and any algorithyms, I may be a little different than most users. (I've done AC and DC Drive System set-ups, and even tinkered in simulation on a Paper machine back at the factory in Salem, Va. I understand lag, ramps, latencey, etc.,)

    The Noise Data quoted on the Brochure (thanks but I already had that one) didn't give me the details, or frequencies at all. Just a number and I wanted to know what standards were referenced (I'm an active member in IEEE, and all we talk is standards ).

    The Lennox tech guy couldn't send me a copy of the standards or testing proceedures but did advise limited data (frequencies, weighting, etc.,) as well as told me they are taken at one foot away from the unit => which I found very peculiar. (I'm used to everything in standard Engineering terms like sound being measured a meter away on axis.) I was quite concerned about noise affecting the neighbors, and one of the reasons I got this Lennox was it's supposed to be the quietest one on the market.

    I agree more communication should of been done by the installing contractor but I got what they gave me. This was purchased through Costco Canada who has a national deal with Lennox, and a local deal with their Distributor / Dealer / Contractor (Coleman Heating). I thought they'd be giving me an intergrated manual / instructions with lots of Data => and have qualified folks to communicate / discuss technical details with me. Lennox advertises this as an integrated Dual Fuel System and I bought it as one. The Brochure you pointed to states prominently on the Front Cover:


    Home Comfort Systems
    XPG15
    The quietest heat pump you can buy*

    optimized for dual-fuel performance

    They failed to meet expectations - a key item in Customer service.

    I found out after that the Stat was just a rebranded Honeywell which also miffed me. I've never been a fan of rebranding apparatus. The Consumer runs a risk of having an "orphan" product down the road and it messes up technical support. This is another way of convincing the Consumer they have bought a Lennox Integrated System even though it's just a cobbled together group of bits and pieces. I was also amazed to learn there are various Indoor Units available which can radically affect the performance of the Heat Pump. I didn't know, and neither the Sales or Installation folks advised either. I got whatever someone wanted sold.

    I'm not saying what I purchased is bad apparatus, or a bad system, just the information before and after sale / install is lacking. I certainly hope it performs as expected but only time will tell.

    In the mean time I continue to look for the information that I think I should have recieved before the installers left. I certainly appreciate the input and comments from all.

  4. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    4,669
    Quote Originally Posted by -Jim- View Post
    pacnw,

    I appreciate your comments (positive or negative). I like to learn all the time. It seems the "professional" members here have to limit their comments on this Site as to not ruffle the feathers of others; so I appreciate anything you can offer.

    As far as understanding the controls logic and any algorithyms, I may be a little different than most users. (I've done AC and DC Drive System set-ups, and even tinkered in simulation on a Paper machine back at the factory in Salem, Va. I understand lag, ramps, latencey, etc.,)

    The Noise Data quoted on the Brochure (thanks but I already had that one) didn't give me the details, or frequencies at all. Just a number and I wanted to know what standards were referenced (I'm an active member in IEEE, and all we talk is standards ).

    The Lennox tech guy couldn't send me a copy of the standards or testing procedures but did advise limited data (frequencies, weighting, etc.,) as well as told me they are taken at one foot away from the unit => which I found very peculiar. (I'm used to everything in standard Engineering terms like sound being measured a meter away on axis.) I was quite concerned about noise affecting the neighbors, and one of the reasons I got this Lennox was it's supposed to be the quietest one on the market.

    I agree more communication should of been done by the installing contractor but I got what they gave me. This was purchased through Costco Canada who has a national deal with Lennox, and a local deal with their Distributor / Dealer / Contractor (Coleman Heating). I thought they'd be giving me an integrated manual / instructions with lots of Data => and have qualified folks to communicate / discuss technical details with me. Lennox advertises this as an integrated Dual Fuel System and I bought it as one. The Brochure you pointed to states prominently on the Front Cover:


    Home Comfort Systems
    XPG15
    The quietest heat pump you can buy*

    optimized for dual-fuel performance

    They failed to meet expectations - a key item in Customer service.

    what do you mean?

    I found out after that the Stat was just a rebranded Honeywell which also miffed me. I've never been a fan of rebranding apparatus. The Consumer runs a risk of having an "orphan" product down the road and it messes up technical support. This is another way of convincing the Consumer they have bought a Lennox Integrated System even though it's just a cobbled together group of bits and pieces. I was also amazed to learn there are various Indoor Units available which can radically affect the performance of the Heat Pump. I didn't know, and neither the Sales or Installation folks advised either. I got whatever someone wanted sold.
    it is Lennox specific as far as configuration, programming and operation. Lennox tech support will not go away, or will Honeywell, and they will be able to help. Many thermostats are made by Honeywell with a different name on them.

    I'm not saying what I purchased is bad apparatus, or a bad system, just the information before and after sale / install is lacking. I certainly hope it performs as expected but only time will tell.
    If you did not do any research on the equipment on a purchase of this size, nobody to blame but yourself.
    kind of like buying a car without checking out the dealer, competition or the actual car.


    In the mean time I continue to look for the information that I think I should have recieved before the installers left. I certainly appreciate the input and comments from all.
    If you paid for it it is yours. that is a contractor issue not a Lennox issue. Like blaming Chevrolet for the local dealer not having your soda in their vending machine.
    .

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
    Posts
    56

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by pacnw View Post
    .
    They failed to meet expectations - a key item in Customer service.

    what do you mean?


    I expected far more information on operating proceedures and settings. I expected an explanation as to why things are set in the manner they are. I expected the methodology to adjust settings later. These were my expectations at time of purchase and I was told by the sales person I'd get them.

    Even if this isn't in writing or a contract, meeting or exceeding a Customer's expectations are the most important part of a deal.

    I did research these units and two contractors before purchase. I checked out many manufacturers and scoured the web for information. I got recomendations from others including my Brother in Law and a close friend of my Mother in Law (both with Heat Pumps). The issues I'm having are not those of a typical purchaser. I'm just after technical info and operational rationale. I bet most folks are happy to set it at 72 F and leave it for a year. Like my Contractor reccomended and set initially

    I'm just not typical.

  6. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by -Jim- View Post
    I'd certainly be interested in any sites to help me in my Quest for good Data.
    Here's something to feed your obsession:

    http://icpindexing.mqgroup.com/docum...tor%20Ver7.xls

    Feed in your numbers and see what it does. Some of the formulas might need adjustment to reflect your situation, but it'll save you calculating & recalculating by hand.

  7. #59
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
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    56

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by thekenward View Post
    Here's something to feed your obsession:

    http://icpindexing.mqgroup.com/docum...tor%20Ver7.xls

    Feed in your numbers and see what it does. Some of the formulas might need adjustment to reflect your situation, but it'll save you calculating & recalculating by hand.
    Ken,

    Thanks a bunch for the spreadsheet.

    By the way, I noticed yesterday that the Data from the AHRI Certificate indicates the HSPF of 8.7 but it's for Region IV whereas we are in Region V (as close as I can tell extrapolating from maps of the USA). Is there any conversion factor about to change Regions?


    I've inputted Data on various sheets but sometimes (like Outside Design Temperature on the Thermal Balance Point Calculator) I don't have a clue on what the input really should be.

    If I put in 12 F the spreadsheet comes back with an intersection very close to what I drew based on actual test data (during the Energy Audit) and certified AHRI info on the system. Of course I can make it wander all over the place depending on this input. What did you do here?

    The Economic Balance Point Calculator for a Dual Fuel System (based on the values I extrapolated from my B.C. Hydro & Terasen Gas bills - shown previously in this thread - your info should be the same? Please advise.) advises a balance point of -11.2 C / 11.9 F.

    Of course it is basing this on an estimated Heat Pump COP curve => but at least it's probably somewhat close. So from an Economic point of view I should be running the Heat Pump virtually all the time as the extreme minimum here being -16C (3.2 F recorded on 12/29/1990). There are only 39.4 days per years where the temperature dips below freezing.

    But from a practical point of view I should run the heat pump only when the outside temperature is above the Thermal Balance Point ~2C (35.5 F) as the heat pump can't keep up with the heat losses of the house below that temperature by itself.

    I'll next try to figure out how to make the calculator use Electricity as the Dual Fuel.

    Thanks again for the spreadsheet.

  8. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by -Jim- View Post
    By the way, I noticed yesterday that the Data from the AHRI Certificate indicates the HSPF of 8.7 but it's for Region IV whereas we are in Region V (as close as I can tell extrapolating from maps of the USA). Is there any conversion factor about to change Regions?
    I don't know about converting, but I think the spreadsheet lets you specify your zone anyway.

    I've inputted Data on various sheets but sometimes (like Outside Design Temperature on the Thermal Balance Point Calculator) I don't have a clue on what the input really should be.
    I used 17 F, which is -8 C.

    The Economic Balance Point Calculator for a Dual Fuel System (based on the values I extrapolated from my B.C. Hydro & Terasen Gas bills - shown previously in this thread - your info should be the same? Please advise.) advises a balance point of -11.2 C / 11.9 F.

    Of course it is basing this on an estimated Heat Pump COP curve => but at least it's probably somewhat close.
    It won't be the same, but I used the COP numbers from the XP15 heat pump unit (from the cooperheating.com site). The graph of the COP on that sheet doesn't match the XP15, but if you unprotect the worksheet you can change the formulas used to compute the COP numbers in the table to match.

    But from a practical point of view I should run the heat pump only when the outside temperature is above the Thermal Balance Point ~2C (35.5 F) as the heat pump can't keep up with the heat losses of the house below that temperature by itself.
    This was my conclusion as well.

    Did you ever get a look at your settings in your thermostat? I'm especially interested in what your "system type" was set to, and the number of cycles per hour (cph) the tech set up for your gas heating.

  9. #61
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
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    Cool

    Ken,

    First of all I checked my Thermostat settings as requested. The Installation Manual (Thanks again ) gives me all the codes when in Installer Setup mode. The owners Guide I was given shows only some selected codes and omits anything with real impact.

    The System Type is 12 (3 Heat & 2 Cool Heat Pump with auxiliary heat), and the number of Cycles per hour is 3 (Recomended setting for Compressors. Factory Setting). I think you posted these were your settings. By the way who was your contractor?

    Converting Region IV to V may (should?) impact the HSPF of 8.7 as my limited understanding of this number is it is derived by simulated testing of the System using the parameters (Heating and cooling days, ambients, etc.). Otherwise the specification would not bother to have a Region component. Perhaps one of the Gurus here could chime in and set us straight??

    Is the Outside Design Temperature for Metro Vancouver, your 17 F, -8 C righteous data? I too find it on some web sites but can't find it on any Enviroment Canada Site. (Here's the definition I found: In heating calculations, the outside design temperature is defined as the coldest outside temperature expected for a normal heating season. )

    I don't think the COP for the X15 will match the XPG-15. I posted earlier after finding some XP-15 Data here:

    I posted

    "beenthere,

    I checked the sheet and there is nothing close. My system is:


    AHRI Certified Reference Number: 3339030
    Date: 12/11/2009


    Product: Split System: Heat Pump with Remote Outdoor Unit-Air-Source
    Outdoor Unit Model Number: XPG15-042-230*
    Indoor Unit Model Number: CX34-43C+TDR+G61MPV-60C-091*
    Manufacturer: LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC.
    Trade/Brand name: XPG15 DEDICATED DUAL FUEL HEAT PUMP
    Manufacturer responsible for the rating of this system combination is LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC.
    Rated as follows in accordance with AHRI Standard 210/240-2006 for Unitary Air-Conditioning and Air-Source
    Heat Pump Equipment and subject to verification of rating accuracy by AHRI-sponsored, independent, third
    party testing:


    Cooling Capacity (Btuh): 40000
    EER Rating (Cooling): 12.00
    SEER Rating (Cooling): 14.50
    Heating Capacity(Btuh) @ 47 F: 35600
    Region IV HSPF Rating (Heating): 8.70

    Heating Capacity(Btuh) @ 17 F: 22200

    I'll email Lennox."


    I could not find any similar XP-15 Unit that has similar output to my XPG-15. You advised: "The graph of the COP on that sheet doesn't match the XP15, but if you unprotect the worksheet you can change the formulas used to compute the COP numbers in the table to match."

    I tried to unprotect the sheet but it asks for a password. Care to advise? Thx.

    Did you do an energy Audit? What losses did it predict? What is your Heatpump / Furnace System?

    Thanks for the inputs and posts.

  10. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    67,727
    Vancouver AP 19F.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  11. #63
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    22
    Jim,

    This is great -- two homeowners who don't know any better chatting it up on a pro HVAC site! Frankly, it's great to meet somehow who is virtually the exact same boat as I am!

    Quote Originally Posted by -Jim- View Post
    The System Type is 12 (3 Heat & 2 Cool Heat Pump with auxiliary heat), and the number of Cycles per hour is 3 (Recomended setting for Compressors. Factory Setting). I think you posted these were your settings. By the way who was your contractor?
    Yes, those are my settings also, though I was also interested in your settings for numbers 240 through 270 (I have the cph for conventional heating set to 5, where I believe it should be set to 3). My contractor, BTW, is exactly the same as yours.

    Is the Outside Design Temperature for Metro Vancouver, your 17 F, -8 C righteous data? I too find it on some web sites but can't find it on any Enviroment Canada Site.
    Check http://www.quickscribe.bc.ca/images2/bcappc.pdf for data around BC. I think this is legitimate.

    I don't think the COP for the X15 will match the XPG-15.
    For my purposes, I'm thinking it's going to be close enough to provide some approximate data. There's probably inaccuracy, but I'm doubtful the differences are more than a few percentage points. (I could be wrong though!) I have a 2.5 ton unit.

    I tried to unprotect the sheet but it asks for a password. Care to advise?
    Huh, weird. I used OpenOffice, and there was no request for a pw,

    Did you do an energy Audit? What losses did it predict? What is your Heatpump / Furnace System?
    I'll answer your personal questions, even though you might be a heat pump stalker....
    Yes; 33000 Btu/hour (after retrofit, estimating ~40k before) for heating, 17.8k Btu/hour cooling load; G61MPV-36B-071 + XPG15-030-230 + CX34-38.

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by thekenward View Post
    Jim,

    ... though I was also interested in your settings for numbers 240 through 270 (I have the cph for conventional heating set to 5, where I believe it should be set to 3).

    The only setting in this group is 260 which is set to 5 => the same as yours. I too found it odd it wasn't set to 3...

    My contractor, BTW, is exactly the same as yours. So you get to ask about the 260 Setting?


    Check http://www.quickscribe.bc.ca/images2/bcappc.pdf for data around BC. I think this is legitimate.

    I saw this before but was hopeful I could get substantiated data that was not from 1995. I know climate change is slow...but 15 years later may have more accurate data due to better instrumentation => but this is better than no data...

    For my purposes, I'm thinking it's going to be close enough to provide some approximate data. There's probably inaccuracy, but I'm doubtful the differences are more than a few percentage points. (I could be wrong though!) I have a 2.5 ton unit.

    I'm still hopeful the real XPG-15 Data will pop up somewhere.

    Huh, weird. I used OpenOffice, and there was no request for a pw,

    I sent it to a Buddy who sometimes can unlock spreadsheets...


    I'll answer your personal questions, even though you might be a heat pump stalker....

    Yup, that's me alright

    Yes; 33000 Btu/hour (after retrofit, estimating ~40k before) for heating, 17.8k Btu/hour cooling load; G61MPV-36B-071 + XPG15-030-230 + CX34-38.
    Did you have any discussion prior to purchase on the significance of the indoor unit (Heat Exchanger)? Did they give you any options or ? Were you enticed by Costco as well?

  13. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8

    Lennox G71mpp?

    hello

    I have lennox G71MPP with lennox 5000 thermastat
    LED is displaying H1A622 what does this mean.

    Dip switches 1 off
    2 off
    3 off
    All appear to be default

    question is is furnace set up correctly?

    Adam

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