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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
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    56

    Cool

    beenthere,

    Thanks again. The unit was installed November 26th so it's quite new.

    I have the AHRI Certificate of Product Ratings Sheet (Ref# 3339030 at the Site) but haven't been able to find any COP values for anything on the AHRI Site.

    Do you think you need to be a Contractor to access the area where the System COPs are located?

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,058
    No.

    they are on it anymore, at least not for your unit, I just looked at it.
    I can find COP rating for an XP15, but not for a XPG15.
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  3. #42
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
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    56

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    No.

    they are on it anymore, at least not for your unit, I just looked at it.
    I can find COP rating for an XP15, but not for a XPG15.
    Can you share the link where you found the XP15, so I'll know what to look for?

    I found some Data on the XP15 on a Lennox Engineering Sheet here:



    By sadly no XPG-15 so far...
    Last edited by -Jim-; 01-02-2010 at 08:58 PM. Reason: add XP15 data link

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    68,058
    I got the same sheet, so you got it from the same place.

    Might be able to use the data for the XP15-042 for your unit. Should be some what close to each other.
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  5. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
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    Cool

    beenthere,

    I checked the sheet and there is nothing close. My system is:


    AHRI Certified Reference Number: 3339030
    Date: 12/11/2009

    Product: Split System: Heat Pump with Remote Outdoor Unit-Air-Source
    Outdoor Unit Model Number: XPG15-042-230*
    Indoor Unit Model Number: CX34-43C+TDR+G61MPV-60C-091*
    Manufacturer: LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC.
    Trade/Brand name: XPG15 DEDICATED DUAL FUEL HEAT PUMP
    Manufacturer responsible for the rating of this system combination is LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC.
    Rated as follows in accordance with AHRI Standard 210/240-2006 for Unitary Air-Conditioning and Air-Source
    Heat Pump Equipment and subject to verification of rating accuracy by AHRI-sponsored, independent, third
    party testing:
    Cooling Capacity (Btuh): 40000
    EER Rating (Cooling): 12.00
    SEER Rating (Cooling): 14.50
    Heating Capacity(Btuh) @ 47 F: 35600
    Region IV HSPF Rating (Heating): 8.70
    Heating Capacity(Btuh) @ 17 F: 22200

    I'll email Lennox.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    22

    Similar Experiences Here!

    Jim,

    Not to hijack the thread, but your experiences here are remarkably like mine. I just had a G61V, XPG15 and Comfortsense 5000 installed in late December, and have been obsessing about it too! In addition, I've been experiencing the gas furnace coming on when the thermostat indicates the outside temperature is above +1.5 C, when I thought the heat pump should be on instead. At that point, the thermostat will say "Heat" instead of "Aux Heat", even though the furnace is running.

    Did you ever resolve this problem? I've been poking around in the thermostat's installer settings to see if there is a problem there, and I wonder if you've done the same. The installer left my system type as a "3 Heat/2 Cool" system, whereas I am thinking it should be a "2 Heat/1 Cool" system. What have you found?

    Thanks!

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
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    56

    Cool

    Ken,

    No worries here about your post. I appreciate the ability to comisserate with another abused user / customer with a similar system nearby.

    My installer did not "leave me the keys" on how to get into those settings. Actually they were very reluctant to even talk about them as they said adjustments can be very detremental to the unit.

    They are very much "let us set it and if it needs any ajustment call us for the service call". They either don't know why certain settings are made (think +1.5C crossover point) or simply can't explain the rationale behind them. Similarly they stumble to explain anything like COP, Balance Point, etc.

    I found that to be quite condesending especially considering my technical background (Electrician / Electronics Technician) and working with Electrical Engineering for 20 years => both in design and industrial applications. I've done PLC, switchgear, and relay protection work, in industrial applications controlling multimillion dollar electric motors and know my way around software. (I build / rebiuld computers for a hobby!) The simple controllers in this residential application should not be too tough for me to understand. I crave technical answers and rationale - not rules of thumb without explanation. Show me the Data!

    I'm still pissed that for $ there is no Manual that intergrates these 3 devices into a system, with detailed explanations on the theory of operations, all relevant technical, test, and performance data, (Balance Point, GOP, AHRI Certificate, Noise Data), various setpoints, and a logical explanation as to why. I know Lennox has all of this easily available but getting to it is very painful, especially to a non HVAC type who really doesn't know what he wants intially (me). I figure most users must be fine with set it and forget it, call us when it breaks, => but that doesn't work for me on critical systems. I need to understand the whys and how toos...

    So instead of irritating the contractor's receptionist numerous times, I post here (thanks for having me), or check out any other web sources I can find. Lennox Tech support is infantile and painful to date.

    I once got through to a "real" engineering type after an hour of phoning around, and waiting on hold (I had to pay the long distance - their 1-800-helpless line was useless => and they gave me the number for the real engineer). He sent me limited noise data via email, and I thought I'd have a real useful contact => but alas the email account used was automated, unmanned, etc., and I'd already tossed his phone number in anticipation of the email with contact info... Grrrr....


    But enough of my morning Rant, and onto your questions.

    The Heat / Aux Heat question is actually explained in an earlier post here. If the Heat Pump unit is in a defrost cycle when the Thermostat (called Stat by most posters here) indicates a need for heat, the Heat Pump is locked out and your Aux (secondary) Heat souce come on. This is regardless of outside temperature. The Stat is too dumb to give you any indication of this operation occurring, and mistakenly indicates Heat instead of Aux Heat (see what you get for $ ). So when it happens, my contractor said to run outside and see if there is steam coming from the Heat Pump . Again, I found no mention of this in any manual Lennox or the Contractor supplied. I expect you are in the same boat.

    By the way, can you advise how you see the "3 Heat/2 Cool" system settings? Thanks!
    Last edited by beenthere; 01-03-2010 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Removed prices

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,058
    Removed your prices. No prices in post. It is in the rules.
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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
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    56

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Removed your prices. No prices in post. It is in the rules.
    Sorry, I thought the number was generic enough and not broken down into components.

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by -Jim- View Post
    The Heat / Aux Heat question is actually explained in an earlier post here. If the Heat Pump unit is in a defrost cycle when the Thermostat (called Stat by most posters here) indicates a need for heat, the Heat Pump is locked out and your Aux (secondary) Heat souce come on. This is regardless of outside temperature. The Stat is too dumb to give you any indication of this operation occurring, and mistakenly indicates Heat instead of Aux Heat (see what you get for $ ). So when it happens, my contractor said to run outside and see if there is steam coming from the Heat Pump . Again, I found no mention of this in any manual Lennox or the Contractor supplied. I expect you are in the same boat.

    By the way, can you advise how you see the "3 Heat/2 Cool" system settings? Thanks!
    Ah, that's why there was steam from that side of the house this morning! I know that the heat pump is running sometimes, but was at a loss as to why I'd find the furnace running but the outdoor temp. sensor reading over 1.5 C.

    How long does your heat pump run when it gets a call for heat? (I know it will vary and be different from mine, but has seemed to be about 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes..?)

    As to the system settings, here's a link to a manual explaining the stat:

    http://www.cooperheatingandcooling.c...stallation.pdf

    I'd be very curious to know the settings the contractor left you with! (Hoping to compare notes!)

    PS: I've also found some useful sites explaining how to calculate a thermal balance point and an economic balance point for heat pump operation.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    68,058
    Quote Originally Posted by -Jim- View Post
    Sorry, I thought the number was generic enough and not broken down into components.
    Even a generic price can start BS.
    One guy might say you were taken. The next tell you that you used a cheap company.
    And then other people post prices for their systems,etc.
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  12. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    4,709
    Quote Originally Posted by -Jim- View Post
    Ken,

    No worries here about your post. I appreciate the ability to commiserate with another abused user / customer with a similar system nearby.

    My installer did not "leave me the keys" on how to get into those settings. Actually they were very reluctant to even talk about them as they said adjustments can be very detrimental to the unit. this can be true, but you did pay for them.

    They are very much "let us set it and if it needs any adjustment call us for the service call". They either don't know why certain settings are made (think +1.5C crossover point) or simply can't explain the rationale behind them. Similarly they stumble to explain anything like COP, Balance Point, etc.

    I found that to be quite condescending especially considering my technical background (Electrician / Electronics Technician) and working with Electrical Engineering for 20 years => both in design and industrial applications. I've done PLC, switchgear, and relay protection work, in industrial applications controlling multimillion dollar electric motors and know my way around software. (I build / rebuild computers for a hobby!) The simple controllers in this residential application should not be too tough for me to understand. I crave technical answers and rationale - not rules of thumb without explanation. Show me the Data!just because you have an electrical background does not mean you would understand it. also, most HVAC guys could not explain the operation of the thermostat because it cannot be explained to them. believe me I have tried for an explaination and can't get one.

    I'm still pissed that for $ there is no Manual that integrates these 3 devices into a system, with detailed explanations on the theory of operations, all relevant technical, test, and performance data, (Balance Point, GOP, AHRI Certificate, Noise Data), various set points, and a logical explanation as to why. I know Lennox has all of this easily available but getting to it is very painful, especially to a non HVAC type who really doesn't know what he wants initially (me). I figure most users must be fine with set it and forget it, call us when it breaks, => but that doesn't work for me on critical systems. I need to understand the whys and how toos...
    there is no manual because there is no ONE publication for the hundreds of equipment combination possibilities.

    It is COP not GOP.

    noise data is equipment specific and in each data brochure.

    balance point is home specific and determined by location, house size, build, windows and other factors that should be determined in a load calculation done by the installing company.


    So instead of irritating the contractor's receptionist numerous times, I post here (thanks for having me), or check out any other web sources I can find. Lennox Tech support is infantile and painful to date.

    I once got through to a "real" engineering type after an hour of phoning around, and waiting on hold (I had to pay the long distance - their 1-800-helpless line was useless => and they gave me the number for the real engineer). He sent me limited noise data via email, and I thought I'd have a real useful contact => but alas the email account used was automated, unmanned, etc., and I'd already tossed his phone number in anticipation of the email with contact info... Grrrr....


    But enough of my morning Rant, and onto your questions.

    The Heat / Aux Heat question is actually explained in an earlier post here. If the Heat Pump unit is in a defrost cycle when the Thermostat (called Stat by most posters here) indicates a need for heat, the Heat Pump is locked out and your Aux (secondary) Heat source come on. This is regardless of outside temperature. The Stat is too dumb to give you any indication of this operation occurring, and mistakenly indicates Heat instead of Aux Heat (see what you get for $ ). So when it happens, my contractor said to run outside and see if there is steam coming from the Heat Pump . Again, I found no mention of this in any manual Lennox or the Contractor supplied. I expect you are in the same boat.

    By the way, can you advise how you see the "3 Heat/2 Cool" system settings? Thanks!
    more could be said, but not going to at this point.

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    West Coast of Canada - Home of the 2010 Winter Olympics
    Posts
    56

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by thekenward View Post
    Ah, that's why there was steam from that side of the house this morning! I know that the heat pump is running sometimes, but was at a loss as to why I'd find the furnace running but the outdoor temp. sensor reading over 1.5 C.

    How long does your heat pump run when it gets a call for heat? (I know it will vary and be different from mine, but has seemed to be about 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes..?)

    As to the system settings, here's a link to a manual explaining the stat:

    http://www.cooperheatingandcooling.c...stallation.pdf

    I'd be very curious to know the settings the contractor left you with! (Hoping to compare notes!)

    PS: I've also found some useful sites explaining how to calculate a thermal balance point and an economic balance point for heat pump operation.
    Thanks! That Instalation Manual looks far more detailed than my small ~4" x 6" Owners Guide (for Models L5711U and L5732U). I pulled the front of my Stat off the wall to try to find the Model Number (no joy!) and found (P)X4147 which must be another way Lennox references this Stat. I googled it and came up with the outside Probe Manual that connects to it.

    I never measured how long the Pump runs but never thought it was too short or long. It does run longer than the new G61 Furnace => but then it's supposed too. I'll try to remember to time it.

    I'd certainly be interested in any sites to help me in my Quest for good Data.

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