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  1. #1
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    Arrow HVAC Energy Reduction Program Initiatives in CA

    It is time to support these new "HVAC Energy Reduction Programs," nationwide, that are being initiated by the CA Public Utility Commissioner.

    This will be great for our industry > "Everybody wins"

    Download all the Power Point Presentations

    "Please, Shorten the link so it will work."


    http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/PUC/energy/En...s+Workshop.htm
    - Darrell

  2. #2
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    California is going to be in deep trouble regardless of if use reductions are made or not; due to environmental opposition to coal/nuclear plants, most of their electricity is generated using natural gas. (The supply of which peaked in north america - expect huge price increases and possible shortages in the next decade - shale gas may not offset the decline of conventional production)

    I welcome anything viable which could improve energy efficiency nevertheless.
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  3. #3
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    where did you get your natural gas info??? every reserve estimate iv'e seen goes over a hundred years. thats just proven reserves, not unexplored reserves. also thats just reserves in the contiguous 48 states.
    "When the people find they can vote themselves money,that will herald the end of the republic" - Benjamin Franklin

    "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force;like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action"- George Washington

  4. #4
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    Unfortunately natural gas resources do not behave like propane in a tank.

    Today's consumption divided by so called proven reserves doesn't really mean anything. Demand tends to grow and the best resources get depleted first; many of the new wells being drilled now deplete within one year or less. (Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicer.../pdf/app_g.pdf)

    The other thing is that the energy required to extract resources needs to be subtracted from reserves. The abundant gas in the tight sands, coal beds, and shale rock formation, etc which speculators and politicians are banking on could very expensive, if not uneconomical to extract. Maximum flow rate is just as important as total reserves. Demand outstripping supply could lead to serious problems.

    15% is US gas is imported from Canada, which happens to be 50% of canadian production. Canadian conventional production peaked in 2001 (http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/eneene/source...g.php#resource) and has been flat or in decline since. The Canadian government and energy companies claim that there is plenty of undiscovered gas, however, the only way to find out for sure is to actually do an inventory. (The same goes for US offshore oil - DRILL DRILL DRILL won't do any good if there's no economical oil to extract and the infrastructure isn't there.)

    Why is Canadian gas production important? Exports to the US could drop as conventional production declines, the tar sands expand, and Ontario switches over from coal to gas fired power plants.

    This is straight from Natural Resources Canada (government)...

    "The natural gas supply situation in North America will look quite different in 2020 from the current situation. Forecasted declines in conventional natural gas production will be partly offset by expected growth in unconventional natural gas production (e.g., coalbed methane, shale gas), and the supply of natural gas from frontier areas such as the Mackenzie Delta and Alaska, and in imports of liquefied natural gas (LNG) into North America, including into Canada.

    Overall, Canada’s natural gas supply, including imports of liquefied natural gas, may be lower in 2020 than at present. The result of combining this with the outlook for higher Canadian natural gas demand would be a drop in Canadian natural gas exports to the United States." (Source: http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/eneene/source...g.php#resource)

    As for the US, I couldn't be bothered to try and dig up + interpret the data from the DOE website, but conventional production (not to be confused with total production) peaked in the 1970s - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_gas#United_States

    Wikipedia isn't always a reliable source of info, so check the footnotes.

    I'm not trying to claim that we're running out, but supply challenges and high prices may lie ahead, especially for the US.

    In contrast, the US has lots of Coal which can't be used in existing heating equipment, manufacturing infrastructure, or for fertilizer production.

    I hope I'm wrong; however, there's no contingency plan.

    Even if there won't be gas supply problems in the next couple of decades, doesn't it make sense to burn the coal and save the high quality gas for higher grade uses? (for which there's no substitute)

    What will future generations use once North America's remaining gas has been squandered in California/Texas/Florida power plants?
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  5. #5
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    Check out "number of producing wells" and compare it to the second page of "total dry production on the second page: http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/n...ngprod2009.pdf Number of producing wells has increased more rapidly than total production. I confirmed it - divided total dry production by number of producing wells in a spreadsheet -> production per well has been dropping in general - 2007 was an exception with a slight increase over the previous year.
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  6. #6
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    i'm not doubting your opinion on nat gas reserves, i was just curious whether you were pullin it out of your a$$ or you had some expertise behind it. new technology is driving gas production further offshore(oil too). i wish we had all that gas that was flared off for years, wasn't very valuable back in the day.
    "When the people find they can vote themselves money,that will herald the end of the republic" - Benjamin Franklin

    "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force;like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action"- George Washington

  7. #7
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    california doesn't want to drill off shore or build nuke plants. what will they do????
    "When the people find they can vote themselves money,that will herald the end of the republic" - Benjamin Franklin

    "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force;like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action"- George Washington

  8. #8
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    i was just curious whether you were pullin it out of your a$$ or you had some expertise behind it.
    Neither - just an opinion based on limited data. I really don't trust the mainstream media when "journalists" merely read press releases handed to them by energy companies and hype up unconventional gas, new technologies, etc which may not deliver.

    If new technologies work out, great(no sarcasm intented); if not well, do the governments which set energy policy have alternative plans?

    ----------------------------------
    I hijacked this thread - I'll shutup now.
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  9. #9
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    All those reportsput out by all Gov't is made to "Nudge" everyone and their mother into the "Green Technologies" such as Wind, Solar of which as you know is unproven to the point that they will never in a million years be able to produce any amount that you might recieve from Natural Gas, Coal,Nuclear, Hydro, Oil not to mention the amount of land needed to build these monstrocities power plants for solar and wind farms which no one every reports on or fails to include in any of their reports that are put out.

    I just read several reports on the new "Thin Film Solar panels" which China is to build a 1 Gigawatt power plant using these "Thin Film Panels" read all the reports you want but your going to be hard pressed to find the info that any solar panel made will produce no more than 15% max. total energy from 1 panel and thats' during a peak noon time frame when the solar rays are providing the majority of its max. rays from the sun. Now this doesn't take into account dust, dirt build up, and other issues that solar panels have yet to overcome but none the less there going to be built.

    with repsect to all those reports on NG, Oil, Coal, we have well over a 100+ years of energy from anyone source be it NG, Oil, or Coal and for anyone to tell you otherwise is only doing so to again Nudge all of us over to the "Green Technologies" You can believe what you want weather you read it from a report, or hear it from "Relieable source's" e.g Alphabet media, MSM, and some other source thats up to you what you choose to listen or believe its a free world last time I checked but thats coming to a end soon too if we let our Members of Congress have there ways.

    Drill Baby Drill is what we all should be saying to those in DC, we have all the necessary equipment just waiting to be put to use and can increase our Oil reserves within 3 yrs if Congress would allow but until then we will be rationed all the NG, Oil, and Coal until we decide to elect sensible people to represent us in both the white House and Congress it's your decision to make the necessary changes we need to move forward to better our lives and those around us.

  10. #10
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    If your really interested in what exactly is going on with respect to our Energy problems just go ahead and read the most current speech Todd Stern gave at the meeting of the minds which included Members from China, GB, and elsewhere. you'll have to google him I don't have the link anymore to the speech but its worth reading.

  11. #11
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    Sorry, there's no "green" government conspiracy as some have suggested. (It's a crackpot theory) The numbers are what they are; it is in the best interest of the greenies to claim that there's plenty of gas left. ("positive gas outlook" = ammunition for their anti-coal arguments)

    Anyone who understands energy issues has concluded that none of the so called alternatives will replace oil/natural gas, and that coal/nuclear plants (which environmentalists oppose) are essential to maintain a reliable electricity supply.

    The greenies (many of which are in congress) who push "alternative energy/fuels" as a drop in replacement for petroleum fuels also don't understand the fact of peak oil and gas, which is set in stone for individual fields. (For global production there's a lot of debate)

    There is a fundamental difference between irrationally doing things to supposedly "save the planet" (cash for clunkers and ethanol subsidies come to mind) and actually addressing the problem in a systematic manner. Both American political parties have dropped the ball in this regard and pandered to political special interest groups.

    The mainstream media has created the public perception of a continue-um ranging from "Anti environment" to "Going green", which serves as an effective distraction. In the eyes of energy-illiterates, blind belief constitutes feasibility; the laws of thermodynamics need not apply.


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    "Drill Baby Drill is what we all should be saying to those in DC (Common myth number one - even if the oil could be extracted tomorrow, it would only constitute a drop in the bucket. ), "we have all the necessary equipment just waiting to be put to use" (Common myth number two. The reality is that the required drilling, distribution, and refining infrastructure isn't really there) and can increase our Oil reserves within 3 yrs (The worst myth of all - there is no evidence to substantiate that claim; no company has even done an inventory of offshore/Alaskan reserves, based on actual samples.) if Congress would allow (Congress should allow exploration, so what we could get over the worst myth of all and work on real solutions) but until then we will be rationed all the NG, Oil, and Coal until we decide to elect sensible people ("Sensible people" such as Reagan and the Bushes who have allowed natural gas and oil to be squandered - reagan lifted the ban on gas fired plants and the bushes fought efforts to improve energy efficiency - in bed with big oil I suppose. More like energy illiterates who will promise to sustain the unsustainable in order to get elected) to represent us in both the white House and Congress it's your decision to make the necessary changes we need to move forward to better our lives and those around us. (How does this fit in with DRILL DRILL DRILL? How will drilling dry holes and encouraging excessive consumption help anyone "move forward to better our lives")"
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  12. #12
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    Arrow Economically, America Will Either Drive Forward or Fall Backward

    I started this thread because of the potential economic benefit for our HVAC industry & for the potential increase in employment that might be generated.

    Former FCC chairman Reed Hundt, stated in essence, on "Talk of The Nation," "That Energy Usage Reduction in America could potentially create 16 million jobs."

    IMO, Broadcast Media has the power to determine whether that could happen!

    There are very few homes & small business buildings, & their HVAC systems, that couldn't use some retro work toward considerably reducing energy usage & utility bills.

    Those that have the finances to have that retro work done, for the sake of the economy & employment, ought to do so ASAP.

    Public radio & public TV could be producing on-going tel-talk programming content that would act as a catalyst to trigger this critical economic initiative for the benefit of our country, our economy & toward reducing unemployment.

    Our economy is at a critical turning point; there is NO Real Remedial ACTION on this critical front, & time is of the essence. (The bloated stock market is NOT the Economy; those illusory gains can vanish in thin air!)

    IMO, Digital broadcast media action combined with government action at every community level is vital to achieve any appreciable success. - Darrell

  13. #13
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    Darrell,
    I agree 100% in that everyone needs to be more conscience of there HVAC equipment and the efficiency of them and should be knowledgeable of when to repair them or replace them. There also should be more PSA in the home improvement sectors such as HGTV, DIY and other shows where they could visit the issues of HVAC instead of glamouring over weather or not a home has Granite Countertops or formica/Laminate.

    BY getting the TV shows in the know of spreading the word on HVAC and it's importance, and how it plays in the scheme of a house as a system and it's energy consumption would go along way and reach a vast majority of people across the Nation more so than a radio announcement would in that more people are apt to watch more TV then listen to radio unless your one who spends alot of time in their cars.

    It's high time all our Members of congress wither chit or get off the pot and start moving in the other direction with respect to our energy needs as a Nation and stop the pandering to the special interest and whose making too much money ect....... We have plenty of resources right here and need to take advantage of what we have and the hell with the other countries especially when the money we do spend buying foreign Oil is working against our TRoops both here and abroad and that too needs to come to a end which in the long run will put an end to alot of our foreign problems with countries such as Iran, Russia, Iraq,and others who are only interested in selling us Oil, and Killing our Troops.

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