Need some advice about a new system

[Olu]

We've recently decided to replace our 1954 American Carrier boiler. I thought this was pretty straight forward but now my head is spinning with the raw amount of information that I've seen in the last couple of days.

This is our current set up.
Oil fired American Standard burner with Amtrol indirect water heater.

House: 1954 cape which was expanded in 1980s. Current total SQ is 3500. Newer section (about 1600 sqft) is adequately insulated, older portion not so much. Copper fin baseboards in the new section, thin metal fin radiators in the original house. 3 zones and programmable thermostats.

Problems: Family of 4 can run out of hot water after 2 x 5 minute showers. Boiler can't heat the house on single digit temperature days (we unfortunately like it warm 70-71 degrees)

I plan on having insulation blown into the older portion of the house.

The state of Mass has 0% financing loans for energy efficiency upgrades that may end in January, so I want to go with a new burner as well. My plan as of 2 days ago was to get the Buderus GB125E/35 with Reillo flame retention oil burner mated to a Superstore SS-40 indirect stainless steel water heater. However my last 2 contractors of mentioned the Energy Kinetics System 2000. The more I read about it the more this seems a better option for us. I won't get the $1500 federal tax rebate with the EK, but the difference in price between the units more then covers that cost. It also seems that the actual efficiency of both these units is comparable.

Am I missing something?

Sorry for the newb question, but I've been reading old posts and reviews online regarding these 2 units and I still can't decide.

[subcooler-65]

The Buderus with logimatic control and Superstor is an excellent system.....I called the EK sales rep in MA. and left a voice mail with my name and # and asked him to call me back. I never heard back......this was a month ago. Why not just keep the Amtrol tank? If it's plumbed correctly and the coils clean you should have no problem with 2x5 min showers. Where in Ma. are you? If it's close by I'd take a look at it.

[Olu]

The Buderus with logimatic control and Superstor is an excellent system.....I called the EK sales rep in MA. and left a voice mail with my name and # and asked him to call me back. I never heard back......this was a month ago. Why not just keep the Amtrol tank? If it's plumbed correctly and the coils clean you should have no problem with 2x5 min showers. Where in Ma. are you? If it's close by I'd take a look at it.

If I go with EK I will probably keep the Amtrol. As for the Buderus, my understanding is that some of the efficiency was because the boiler sat on top of the water tank.

We're in Needham MA.

[subcooler-65]

Buderus makes their own DW tank if you want to stack the system....the boiler won't sit on top of a superstor. I would only stack them if you don't have the room. Are you going to use the Logimatic control?

[Olu]

Buderus makes their own DW tank if you want to stack the system....the boiler won't sit on top of a superstor. I would only stack them if you don't have the room. Are you going to use the Logimatic control?

The quote I have does include the Logimatic control. I thought the superstore was the Buderus DW tank. I'll have to bring that up with the contractor. Like I said I'm only a couple of days into this and trying to educate myself quickly.

No opinions on the EK System 2000?

[Freezeking2000]

I would go for the buderus boiler. Get the credit. If the other is as good why no credit? The controll is awesome.

[Olu]

I would go for the buderus boiler. Get the credit. If the other is as good why no credit? The controll is awesome.

The $1500 federal tax credit is based on a units AFUE rating. To qualify you need an AFUE of 90% or greater. Buderus, Peerless, and Monitor products are the only manufacturer's to carry Oil burners that qualify.

From what I've read, AFUE ratings are not the best way to judge efficiency of an Oil boiler. These ratings account for how efficient the boiler is while burning the oil. It does not take into account how efficient the boiler is at cooling down, warming up, or at idle. The EK unit may not be as efficient as the Buderus when going full throttle, but it catches (and in some tests surpasses) the Buderus because it heats up and cools off MUCH quicker.

The EK is about 60% the price of the Buderus and the system makes more sense to me. I believe that the Buderus is a great system and until today was set on getting it, but now I'm wondering if the EK hype is real or not.

[flange]

guys here wont talk bad about a particular product you are comparing, but will give a thumbs up to a worthwhile product in their eyes, ie goodwords about the buderus. we dont necessarily care about price, but look for two things in particular, quality, and responsiveness in the event of a problem. re read the posts.

[beenthere]

AFUE, is a seasonal efficiency.

What you described, was Steady State Efficiency, not AFUE.

[inhoth2o]

if you go with the EK make shore there a company around to service it, no supply house carries the EK parts, i tried to call them last x-mas vacation, they were close for the hole week and never did return my call.
there are other three pass boiler out there with add on controls less then the Buderus but not with the rebate,
those boiler mate coils sometimes need to be flushed

[Olu]

AFUE, is a seasonal efficiency.

What you described, was Steady State Efficiency, not AFUE.

Like I said I'm just learning about this now. Basically what I was trying to convey is that AFUE doesn't tell the whole story. There are other places that other boilers may be more or less efficient which is not reflected in the AFUE.

A good analogy I heard was AFUE is equivalent to a cars MPG on the highway. Great if you travel on the highway all the time, but not realistic for most people.

if you go with the EK make shore there a company around to service it, no supply house carries the EK parts, i tried to call them last x-mas vacation, they were close for the hole week and never did return my call.
there are other three pass boiler out there with add on controls less then the Buderus but not with the rebate,
those boiler mate coils sometimes need to be flushed

One of the EK protagonists was from my Oil Company who currently service the boiler. They are coming out this week to write up a proposal so I will enquire more about parts and servicing.

Back to my original questions. For a second, forget reliability, serviceability. Is the EK boiler as efficient as they claim? If so why haven't other companies followed their lead?

As of this AM I'm leaning back towards the Buderus.

[beenthere]

AFUE. Is how well the unit uses ALL the fuel for the year that it consumed.
So a lower AFUE means it doesn't use it as well. And there for, will use more fuel, to do the same job.

Higher AFUE, means it has a higher Steady State Efficiency also.

So, the EK is cheaper up front. and that appeals to you. Fine. Don't justify it, that the energy rating isn't showing you the real picture.

You can pay upfront, or in the long run, your choice.

[Olu]

AFUE. Is how well the unit uses ALL the fuel for the year that it consumed.
So a lower AFUE means it doesn't use it as well. And there for, will use more fuel, to do the same job.

Higher AFUE, means it has a higher Steady State Efficiency also.

So, the EK is cheaper up front. and that appeals to you. Fine. Don't justify it, that the energy rating isn't showing you the real picture.

You can pay upfront, or in the long run, your choice.

Though the EK is cheaper up front I want the better unit....period. My issue is that EK is claiming better efficiency then even the condensing cast iron units. The fact that their system (low mass boiler) works differently then most cast iron systems, is why their claims having given me pause. They clearly discuss AFUE and their faults, which seems to be supported by other sources. Also reading online reviews, I've read of some disappointments with the savings from the Buderus, but reviews from the EK people are surprised about their 50-60% decrease in oil use.

Back to the car analogy, even though traditional gas engines are what most cars use today, there have been technologies (diesel, rotary engine) that are as good or better then what everyone uses.

So anyone with experience with both units comment on their comparative efficiencies?

[beenthere]

I wouldn't expect them to tout that their boiler has a lower efficiency.

[Olu]

I wouldn't expect them to tout that their boiler has a lower efficiency.

http://www.energykinetics.com/afue.shtml

[beenthere]

http://www.energykinetics.com/afue.shtml

Seen that.

Did you read the full report, or just the blurb on EK's sight.

[Olu]

Seen that.

Did you read the full report, or just the blurb on EK's sight.

I read the report from the link on EK's sight. Is there more to the report then then what they've posted, because I can't find the original study. The chart that gets me is this one>



Obviously marked up by the EK folks but what's the significance of this? Like I said, until last week I didn't know what heat loss or BTU or condensing boilers meant.

[beenthere]

There will be a lot more to that report.
Such as the method they used find the results.
Some test methods used by all labs are questionable.
I don't have the full report either.

But, that same lab, was using the factory AFUE in their 2005 report on new equipment savings.

There was a report on this board about 2 years ago. On a test done in Florida. On the benefits of proper sizing for A/Cs. They blotched the test. And came up with bad results. And admitted why.

How many years, are those results suppose to be from. how close where the winter conditions from one year to the next? What living conditions where changed?

Without the whole report. You and I don't know.
And it makes the report, unreliable.