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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    68,979
    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    You are right, it not free heat excert sumer but it is cheep heat even in heat mode.If run a load simulator with a geo unit with a desuperheater your operating cost will go up about 90 buck, but your hot water cost go down buy 300 buck. sound cheep to me. just sayin
    This is correct, if the system is sized properly and there is adequate well length for the type of ground as well as proper well grouting.

    In the winter operation though, the water heating is not really operating as a desuperheater, but rather as a water heating heat pump. You are getting your heat from the condenser side of the system, not the evaporator side.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  2. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    south cental iowa
    Posts
    18
    I'm not familer with the unit he said he had? dose it have dedicated hot water? If so maybe his high bills stem for the unit locking on heating water and the electric back up heating the space? did he say he ran a setback stat. that could also be costing him electric backup? maybe some brought this up already and I missed it. Tomany thing at once.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    885
    I have a three ton waterfurnace. I produce far more hot water in the winter then in the summer. I have tested the system with the desuperheater on and off. Not a noticeable difference in the heating mode with run times, (as in lack of heating performance). Due to the fact that we have 2400+ heating hours and only 400+ cooling hours in my climate in Or. I end up with more hot water even when there is less available btus for the desuper heater in the winter. If your in the heating mode or cooling mode you don't pay extra for this process, your compressor is on and the desuperheater pump is on in both heating and cooling modes.
    Genius = The guy who can do anything...except make a living!

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    68,979
    Quote Originally Posted by geodude View Post
    I have a three ton waterfurnace. I produce far more hot water in the winter then in the summer. I have tested the system with the desuperheater on and off. Not a noticeable difference in the heating mode with run times, (as in lack of heating performance). Due to the fact that we have 2400+ heating hours and only 400+ cooling hours in my climate in Or. I end up with more hot water even when there is less available btus for the desuper heater in the winter. If your in the heating mode or cooling mode you don't pay extra for this process, your compressor is on and the desuperheater pump is on in both heating and cooling modes.
    If you are in cooling mode, you are using absorbed heat that would normally go to waste to heat domestic water. In the heating mode, you are paying to produce that heat and the cooling affected is going to waste.

    One way or another, in the heating mode, you are going to have to pay to generate heat. In the cooling mode, that heat is virtually free because it is a byproduct.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  5. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    885

    Talking

    Your paying to run the desuper heater pump in the cooling mode as well as the heating mode, so your still paying... the small amount of btus lost in the heating mode to the desuper heater will not impact a properly designed system. Its like three or four thousand btu's if my memory serves right on a three ton geo closed loop system ( in heating). We are moving heat in either mode ( cooling or heating), with a pump, your paying to operate. There are substantial savings to be had with a desuper heater helping out the main source of heating the domestic water. Any pump costs are far out weighed by the savings over just your main source of hot water.
    If you have to turn off your desuper heater just to satisfy the heating demands of your home, you better have a chat with the installing company.
    Genius = The guy who can do anything...except make a living!

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    68,979
    Quote Originally Posted by geodude View Post
    Your paying to run the desuper heater pump in the cooling mode as well as the heating mode, so your still paying... the small amount of btus lost in the heating mode to the desuper heater will not impact a properly designed system. Its like three or four thousand btu's if my memory serves right on a three ton geo closed loop system ( in heating). We are moving heat in either mode ( cooling or heating), with a pump, your paying to operate. There are substantial savings to be had with a desuper heater helping out the main source of heating the domestic water. Any pump costs are far out weighed by the savings over just your main source of hot water.
    If you have to turn off your desuper heater just to satisfy the heating demands of your home, you better have a chat with the installing company.
    You are not paying for the heat in the cooling mode. That heat is waste heat extracted from the air for cooling. The only cost for heating domestic water in the cooling mode is the desuperheater (hot water generator) pump which is also being paid for when the system is in the heating mode.

    When the system is in the heating mode, you have to pay to heat the air or to heat the domestic water; nothing is free. Yes, it is a substantial savings to use the heat pump rather then electric heaters to heat domestic water during the winter, as long as the system has been sized to handle the additional heat load.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  7. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    68,979
    A desuperheater for geo systems is the same in the cooling mode as is a desuperheater for any air to air cooling system. Instead of dissipating the heat extracted from the home via the evap coil into the atmosphere or ground, that heat is used to heat the domestic water.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    238
    My desuperheater makes more hot water in the winter becasue I have not only longer run times but quality of the heat from the discharge of the compressor is a much much higher (ie higher temp). In the summer the compressor discharge is barely warm enough to notice until the loop water gets above 70F which takes a long time. 410, unlike 22, runs very close to (and sometimes at) its critical point where it would be impossible to tell the difference between liquid and vapor.

    Yes the temps I measure are prior to the desuperheater. Also my desuper heater will run in both low and high stage. But will turn off if third stage(strip heat) is called for. Or it will turn off when it detects the incomming water temp at 130F.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    Forget referring to the hot gas discharge heat as being from the desuperheater (hot water generator). The heat is produced by the compressor.

    You guys keep dancing around the fact that you have to pay for the compressor to run and the compressor has to run in order for heat to be produced. You are paying for the heated domestic water in the winter whereas you are not paying for it in the summer because it is waste heat from the cooling system.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  10. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas via Chicago Area via Straight Up from There on Lake Superior
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    1,411
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    ...

    You guys keep dancing around the fact that you have to pay for the compressor to run and the compressor has to run in order for heat to be produced. You are paying for the heated domestic water in the winter whereas you are not paying for it in the summer because it is waste heat from the cooling system.
    Believe that Bee acknowledged this in previous post. Others might be a bit misguided. But the high COP rating (maybe 3.5-5) for geo seems to argue that it would be much cheaper to use heat water than an electric HWH at COP from .9-.95, say, or NG at much less than that. Would you concur with that RoBo?

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerryd_2008 View Post
    Believe that Bee acknowledged this in previous post. Others might be a bit misguided. But the high COP rating (maybe 3.5-5) for geo seems to argue that it would be much cheaper to use heat water than an electric HWH at COP from .9-.95, say, or NG at much less than that. Would you concur with that RoBo?
    Absolutely, and already have done so. Unfortunately, in my area, too many geo systems, equipment as well as wells, are not sized to handle the entire heat loss of the home, so to use the geo system to heat domestic water in the winter causes the electric auxilliary heaters to come on to heat the home. That becomes quite costly.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  12. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Northwest Arkansas via Chicago Area via Straight Up from There on Lake Superior
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    ... in my area, too many geo systems, equipment as well as wells, are not sized to handle the entire heat loss of the home, so to use the geo system to heat domestic water in the winter causes the electric auxilliary heaters to come on to heat the home. That becomes quite costly.
    Very good point and at the cost of geo, at least in my locale, adding capacity just to heat water can be a very expensive choice. If you can squeeze out a half ton of geo that's eliminating a pretty pricey HWH. Probably even worth spending to tighten up the house to see if you can get it down a full ton which means serious $$$$.

    Just listened this morning to a national energy consultant that lives in Arkansas. He is big on electric .vs. NG and definitely before solar. He said again that with the 30% tax credit on geo he can get the price down to that of a high end HP. I love the guy but that was definitely not my experience. Didn't know about the Broan IQ technology so I don't know what they cost but my high end York DFHP would come in, after $1500 tax credit and manufacturer rebate, at half that of a 1 ton smaller geo. The HO needs to check their assumptions, get real proposals and run the numbers before they marry that "cute girl".

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerryd_2008 View Post
    Very good point and at the cost of geo, at least in my locale, adding capacity just to heat water can be a very expensive choice. If you can squeeze out a half ton of geo that's eliminating a pretty pricey HWH. Probably even worth spending to tighten up the house to see if you can get it down a full ton which means serious $$$$.

    Just listened this morning to a national energy consultant that lives in Arkansas. He is big on electric .vs. NG and definitely before solar. He said again that with the 30% tax credit on geo he can get the price down to that of a high end HP. I love the guy but that was definitely not my experience. Didn't know about the Broan IQ technology so I don't know what they cost but my high end York DFHP would come in, after $1500 tax credit and manufacturer rebate, at half that of a 1 ton smaller geo. The HO needs to check their assumptions, get real proposals and run the numbers before they marry that "cute girl".
    One problem in more northern regions with retrofitting geo to an existing duct system is that we can only go so much on the capacity of the geo system to accomodate the heat loss, depending on the sizing of the existing ducting.

    One thing we must all realize is that there is no cookie cutter design for any system, but in particular a system such as geo. The vast differences in the heat and humidity levels across the country need to be taken into consideration for each system. Even where I am, within 100 miles in any direction the ground conditions change so much from slate to clay to sand that geo systems must be taken on an individual basis. What works in the foothills of the Appalacians in PA is not going to work in the sandy soil a hundred miles away in Northern Delaware.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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