Carriers Secondary Heat Exchangers

[slomoe]

Are these things still a problem? I can find all sorts of stories about carriers bad heat exchangers. Is this a case of the squeaky wheel being the loudest? My gut feeling is that people dont usually say anything unless they are angry. My other gut feeling is that many of the heat exchanger problems were probably due to improper installation and/or lack of maintenance.

Anyone have experience with HX problems on carriers?

[DGIO-Not]

Because you specifically mention secondary heat exchangers, I am going to ASSume you read the latest service bulletin on how to properly check them and when they would or would not be covered.

As longtime bleeding blue, only heat exchanger issue with secondary they had trouble catching up with was with the early SXBs and silicone from construction plugging them. Regardless how you read the bulletin or your own feelings, liability is something they are unwilling to take on...just trying to transfer risk. The key word "trying." It is either bad or it is not, no in between when talking CO and consumer health. What they have found, and something I agree with, not enough contractors know how to do a combustion analsysis much less how to do one on a sealed combustion chamber.

[slomoe]

Because you specifically mention secondary heat exchangers, I am going to ASSume you read the latest service bulletin on how to properly check them and when they would or would not be covered.

As longtime bleeding blue, only heat exchanger issue with secondary they had trouble catching up with was with the early SXBs and silicone from construction plugging them. Regardless how you read the bulletin or your own feelings, liability is something they are unwilling to take on...just trying to transfer risk. The key word "trying." It is either bad or it is not, no in between when talking CO and consumer health. What they have found, and something I agree with, not enough contractors know how to do a combustion analsysis much less how to do one on a sealed combustion chamber.

The problem I'm referring to is with the plastic coated secondary's. The plastic peels off, exposing the mild steel and causes the HX to rust through.. supposedly. This is what the class action lawsuit against carrier was for.

[ChuckHVAC]

I've had a few Carrier secondary heat exchangers de-laminate. Always on propane, never on natural gas. I haven't had them rust out because the restricted flow causes them to soot up or trip roll out switches long before they rusted out. I'm not dissing on Carrier, all were covered under warranty, and all were at least 10 years old. They provided replacement for the sooted up primary cells also.
I don't know if anything has been changed in the manufacturing process or the materials since the ones I replaced were built.

[workhc]

i am seeing troubles with models sx and sxc natural gas or lp gas. i do combustion test and all yhat will go with it but the easiest way to tell if they are failing is to pull the blower and look at the secondary. if its even the slightest bit corroded i pull and replace or replace the furnace. never had an issue with distributor doing it this way

[billygoat22]

some of the newer ones appear to be stainless, at least that's what they looked like. I don't do carrier stuff so don't know for sure.did see a bulltein from Payne saying they're "OK" even w/ bad secondarys:

[billygoat22]

Secondary Heat ExchangerEnhanced WarrantyFrequently Asked QuestionsWhat is this I'm hearing about a lawsuit?Recently, a small number of our customers filed a class-action lawsuit claiming premature failure on the secondary heat exchanger found in Payne high-efficiency gas furnaces (90% AFUE or greater) produced after 1989. Payne Heating & Cooling offered a settlement in the lawsuit to bring the matter to a timely resolution, to provide our customers with peace of mind and because we stand by all of our products.What does this mean for me?It means if you are the original owner of a qualifying unit installed anytime prior to April 22, 2008, you receive the new industry leading warranty. While these furnaces have seen an extraordinarily low national warranty rate, with the settlement we have agreed to provide customers a 20-year labor warranty to go with the lifetime parts warranty for the secondary heat exchangers on all included furnaces. In the unlikely event of a failure, customers would have the option of coverage of the parts and labor for the replacement of the secondary heat exchanger, or a credit towards the purchase of a new, more energy-efficient system that can provide greater comfort and energy savings. For customers who have already been required to replace their secondary heat exchangers, we would provide monetary compensation to them.Do I need to have my furnace inspected immediately?Payne, like all other furnace manufacturers, recommends (and always has) that furnaces have an annual clean & check, to ensure that it is in proper and optimal working condition. There is NO safety issue involved. This is NOT a product recall. There is NO danger of carbon monoxide poisoning from a failed heat secondary exchanger. Most furnaces will have no problem. Those that have a failure of the secondary heat exchanger will simply not heat properly. At that time, the consumer can call a dealer, and the dealer will determine whether the no-heat issue is due to a secondary heat exchanger failure. If so, the dealer will treat this as an in-warranty repair.What was the issue?The Plaintiffs claim the polypropylene used to coat the secondary heat exchanger is not sufficient. We firmly deny these claims and maintain that we did not act wrongfully or unlawfully. We stand behind our products, and believe that the patented material we use to construct our secondary heat exchangers is superior.What is polypropelene?Polypropylene, or PPL, is plastic resin which was first developed for use in handling highly corrosive fluids. Many car batteries are made of polypropylene to ensure safely stored battery acids. It has also been found to be one of the safest plastics for the handling of food. PPL is used in food containers and even in some bakeware.Will I have problems later?Rigorous scientific testing demonstrates that the patented PPL-laminated design improves durability against acidic condensation versus various grades of stainless steel. The current family of condensing gas furnaces, in production since 1993, has a history of high consumer satisfaction and extraordinarily low warranty rate. For optimum performance, all furnaces, regardless of brand, should receive annual routine maintenance.Is there a safety danger from a faulty heat exchanger?No, the furnaces are safe and even the plaintiffs' lawyers are not claiming that anyone has been injured. The furnaces are designed with many features to ensure safe operation, even if a problem were to occur. For example, if a hole were to develop in the heat exchanger, the combustion gases, including any carbon monoxide, would NOT leak from the hole into the circulating air. Instead, circulating air inside the home would be drawn into the hole and the combustion gases would be vented safely outside through the flue. Remember, for optimum performance, all furnaces, regardless of brand, should receive routine maintenance.Why don't others use this technology?Our polypropylene laminated heat exchanger design is our patent, which prevents others from making heat exchangers using this design. There is no industry standard for the material in a heat exchanger, only for corrosion testing. Our heat exchangers exceed industry corrosion test standards.Why should I go with Payne?Our company has the largest installed base of ducted heating and cooling equipment in North America and we stand behind all of our products in terms of quality, safety, reliability and benefits for our customers. We are extremely proud of our high-efficiency furnaces, which have won numerous awards. We value our customers and have never been more committed to delivering quality products. As an industry leader, Payne Heating & Cooling constantly strives to be our customers' first choice for air conditioning, heating and refrigeration solutions everywhere around the world.Where can I learn more?You can learn more by calling 1-877-574-0173.Return

[doc havoc]

I'm not about to try and start an argument or any kind of slander against any brand, but if a cracked heat exchanger is not a safety issue of any kind, why do we bother replacing them when they crack? Again, I'm not arguing with what Payne is saying, just wondering what to tell the next person with a cracked HX who may have read something like this.

[billygoat22]

I was thinking "damage control" when reading the above. But that's just me.

[doc havoc]

Damage control for Payne? Or damage control for us? IMHO, any heat exchanger that is visibly leaking, cracked or otherwise compromised should be replaced.

[heatpumpguru]

My 3 years Carrier Infinity heater just had a BAD heater exchanger,with propane and it's a HYBRID HEAT set up. I used less then 500 gallons of propane since it's back up heat to a 2 stage INFINITY heat pump.I think they settled lawsuit,paid lawyers and did not change design.The Carrier reps stink and support is ZERO. I am glad I got it for FREE or I would be really mad if I had to pay for it.Since we sell LENNOX, I was going to tear it out and put it in,but their NEW stuff isnt out yet.Even if I got it FREE now I would say NO!!!

[GwenLee]

Our carbon monoxide detector went of like crazy in the middle of the night right after Christmas. Technician came next day and said secondary heat exchanger was rusted through. Their PR is that this is not dangerous and cannot cause any carbon monoxide to get into the house. We are just lucky that alarm still worked, it was really old. Just thought I would share that. They are still failing. This was natural gas, 13 years old in Oregon.

[tlankford]

My hx failed this week how do I make a claim?

[I_bend_metal]

My hx failed this week how do I make a claim?

You can't....unless you're a licensed contractor.....

How do you know it's failed???

[tlankford]

Over temp swith kept kicking out in section shows leak in secondaryhx

[tlankford]

Sorry inspection shows failure tech said it had to be replaced.

[I_bend_metal]

Sorry inspection shows failure tech said it had to be replaced.

The tech and his company will handle the warranty.....

You will have to pay labor however for the replacement.....

[Toby Monger]

Call your local Factory Authorized Carrier Dealer and they will take good care of you.

[jeffkrol]

Our carbon monoxide detector went of like crazy in the middle of the night right after Christmas. Technician came next day and said secondary heat exchanger was rusted through. Their PR is that this is not dangerous and cannot cause any carbon monoxide to get into the house. We are just lucky that alarm still worked, it was really old. Just thought I would share that. They are still failing. This was natural gas, 13 years old in Oregon.

CO detectors have a finite lifespan measured in a few years. .. you should probably replace it.
A side note: I was told that when the batteries get low it can produce a false alarm.. Right before replacing our furnace we had one go off.. and when we had the house checked (there was a small crack in the heat exchanger and the furnace was 20+ years old) Co levels were in the 1-2ppm everywhere and anywhere . CO detectors (some most??) really have a relatively high detection point like 400ppm..
After changing the batteries the unit never went off again though it was months before we finally replaced the unit..
To err on the side of caution is never a bad thing but just a few things to be aware of.

[tlankford]

Is anyone familiar with some of the issues with the Carrier Infinity heat pump, I know someone that's had problems since it was installed. Can't get any support from the installer or Carrier!