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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Beatrice, NE
    Posts
    1,987
    I was pushing for a state licence here, created by HVAC pros, enforced by the government. It would set a varifiable standard of installation that the inspector could follow, equipment could not be purchased without a licence, it had a journyman apprentice program - no apprentice on the job without journeyman or higher, if you hacked in a job that didn't pass inspection and got caught you fixed it FREE, it had residential, light commercial, commercial, and inductrial sections that could not be crossed ie no res. work on a lht com licence etc, HOs could buy equipment for big box but would have to use the dealers licence & dealer would be responsable. testing would be about more than just sadety issues, I could go on. So here is what happened. A letter and survey got passed around at all the service schools and meetings I went to, a trainer for a local distributor passed it around at his schools, a training facility passed it around at those classes, 90% of the dealers and techs that saw the outline liked the idea and signed the responce sheet. I sent the letter and sign up sheet to all the distributors I could come up with along with a letter asking them to just put it on their counter, they didn't even have to endorse it just put it out where Techs could see it and if they wanted to send it out with sales reps would be great. I got a 100% responce back from the distribs, "We think it is a good idea but are affraid it will make out customers mad so we won't do it" I even followed up with phone calls to many of them and got the same responce. So it died.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Fingerlakes region, N.Y.
    Posts
    78

    hacks

    I lost a quote to some menonites in my town. Vent pipe is exhausting 5 inches away from a single pain 50 year old window. Nice guy that i am i told the homeowners father-inlaw that it is not safe. That was a year ago and nobody changed it.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    853
    Quote Originally Posted by woodsman View Post
    As long as equipment is being bought from the internet there will be unlicensed, uninsured hacks doing hvac work.
    Licensed contractors probably do far more "hack" work then everyone else combined. (based on the sheer number of them).

    Internet sales are a drop in the bucket.

    Quality work begins with the management philosophy of the company. I really don't think techs. want to do "hack" installs. Either they don't have the skills, aptitude or training for the job or they aren't given the time to do things right.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Posts
    56
    Quote Originally Posted by davefr View Post
    Licensed contractors probably do far more "hack" work then everyone else combined. (based on the sheer number of them).

    Internet sales are a drop in the bucket.

    Quality work begins with the management philosophy of the company. I really don't think techs. want to do "hack" installs. Either they don't have the skills, aptitude or training for the job or they aren't given the time to do things right.
    GREAT POINT. even good companies and installers can do less than stellar work when they are "back against a wall"
    d for scheduling, short handed, or have a new crew member. A Key is brining concerns up to the installer, salesperson, etc politely and respectfully. With a new guy, they may not even know he is doing it wrong, and letting them know helps not only the HO, but the HVAC Co as they can correct the problem asap. Saves everyone in the long run.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
    Posts
    17,904
    Quote Originally Posted by davefr View Post
    Licensed contractors probably do far more "hack" work then everyone else combined. (based on the sheer number of them).
    Alert the media!!!!!!!

    OK, sarcasm aside, I'm dumbfounded that someone could make such assertion without even anecdotal evidence of at least a handful of licensed contractors doing "hack" work, much less the result of a real study by some advocacy or oversight group.

    When I see hacky work, it is invariable a cousin of "joey."
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  6. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Meriden, Kansas
    Posts
    435
    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    When I see hacky work, it is invariable a cousin of "joey."
    Same here, I'm not talking about the minor stuff that might might slip past an inspector. I mean the really bad and unsafe stuff. There are exceptions to every general statement, but mostly the licensed contractors around here do a pretty good job.
    Anything I say here is only my opinion. Even if you understood what I said.... What I said may not even be what I meant.

  7. #20
    Licensing guarantees nothing. I have seen plenty of shortcuts and 'hacks' made by other licensed professionals (how many times have you seen floor joists decimated by a plumber, cheap outlets installed by electricians, etc.) Those who want to do quality work will spend the extra time to get educated and do the job right. Most homeowners, if your upfront with them (and you educate them) will pay to have a professional job done. Those who don't want to pay up will always find a hack, licensed or not, to do a cheap job.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,848
    As someone has lived in worked in very different regions: federal licensing can not address codes, construction and climate. Oh sure, they can try, but it is like with Energry Efficiency and fighting off state legistlation that exceeds federal.

    My last market, local inspectors drove around and swooped in like Kamakazees. Current market? Calling and telling them someone didn't pull a permit or doesn't have license gets a shrug and "So? Are you going to call the licensing board?"


    As legislation gets stricter, so does apathy. My last market did not require licensing, this one has pretty high standards. State is actually really good about response but we have Senate bill to cut their force in half.

    Quite frankly in last year, we have had to totally provide new and reinstall two installations just over 2yo. Pull, clean and reinstall with modifications five installations that 5-7 years old. Go head to head with a manufacturer sales sides, with support of tech support that we were offering to be witness to total disregard for installation and local codes. What is worse, they were all jobs permits were pulled and inspected (well, couple were in really nasty crawl spaces--we had them encapsulated just so we could do job right), had to deal with originating inspectors and "educate" them. Pure Apathy, I think I preferred with dealing with the Kamakazee, not exactly knowing the difference of codes from one village to the next so just exceeding all.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Huntsville, AL
    Posts
    114
    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckHVAC View Post
    I am not a fan of national licensing, if you already have local licensing how would national licensing change anything? The hacks and the tight wads will always be out there getting around any system.
    I do agree with the frustration expressed in your rant. It does seem that we spend way too much time cleaning up other peoples messes. The original installer rips the customer off and makes some quick easy money, but when we have to tell the owner that it will cost big bucks just to straighten it out they sometimes treat us like we are the thiefs!
    A small but positive step might be for the professional members on this website to be listed by location, with contact information. Then a homeowner, like me, who is looking for a truly capable technician and a quality conscious company, would have a way to make that connection.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    1,070
    Quote Originally Posted by davefr View Post
    OK, let's propose 4 years undergraduate study in science and physics. Now let's allow those with the best GPA's to enter a 2-4 year series of courses in HVAC. Now let's those that graduate go on to practice under a pro. Now they can get a license to practice HVAC!!
    Don't see why not - they charge more than physicians!!!


  11. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,923
    Quote Originally Posted by sktn77a View Post
    Need Federal Licensing!!!! Fed Up With Hacks!



    If they can do it for medicine, there's no reason it can't be done for HVAC!
    LOL! I think you made the point for why we don't want any more government involved in our industry.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  12. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    Never invite a vampire into your home!


    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    Alert the media!!!!!!!

    OK, sarcasm aside, I'm dumbfounded that someone could make such assertion without even anecdotal evidence of at least a handful of licensed contractors doing "hack" work, much less the result of a real study by some advocacy or oversight group.

    When I see hacky work, it is invariable a cousin of "joey."
    Hack work from license contractors, both small and large, is the norm in the Fort Worth/Dallas area, rather than the exception.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,923
    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    Never invite a vampire into your home!




    Hack work from license contractors, both small and large, is the norm in the Fort Worth/Dallas area, rather than the exception.
    That's because neither of the two things that come from Texas are very good with HVAC; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyFSd...yer_detailpage
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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