Need Federal Licensing!!!! Fed Up With Hacks!

[Big Unit]

Went on a service call yesterday for a wonderful Quietside boiler and wish I had a camera. Never seen an install this bad! Here was the list of problems I found in my 45 min. there before just telling the property owner it needs to be ripped out and re-installed.
1) Gas piping in black pipe ran across floor, not secured either, with no drip leg or shutoff, ANYWHERE!
2) No automatic fill valve, just a manual ball valve.
3) Exhaust slopes downward the whole length of the run.
4) Boiler intake stubs out of mechanical room into basement area.
5) No expansion tank anywhere to be found.
6) System has three zones with one common return. Their are no zone valves the pumps just turn on when that specific zone calls. The boiler is piped with the pumps pushing into the boiler then up what was originally supposed to be the return lines so their is no control of the zones.


Then the property owner refuses to pay because I didn't fix anything! Not my fault he's too cheap! I told him to call the original installer seeing as how it was put in 9 months ago, but he lost the guys number. Not the COMPANYS number but the GUYS number! Time to call the inspector for that city.

[plumadkl]

You are right about hakes they are everywhere in my county there is no licensing needed at all to start a heating company all you need is a truck and a tool box and a guy named bubba to help you. In the city its needed but half the guys who do work there don't have a license it's about time the trades come together Sheet Metal , HVAC , Electricians , Plumbers to start a National Licensing board but then again how much government do we need its a catch 22 .

[hearthman]

First of all, nobody can agree on what are the national standards as to what is right and wrong. Heck, this site was created to debate those very issues. The codes don't agree and are not up to date with technology or what actually works in the field. There are insufficient schools and instructors who, again don't know what to teach. There is no apprenticeship program for quality assurance. No system of post checks for quality control. The building inspectors don't know what they are looking at and do not have the time for an exhaustive inspection. So tell me, what in the world could federal licensing do that is positive? I can tell you that EVERY program the gov't has touched turned into the biggest fiasco of all time. They are synonymous with complete utter bungling, inefficient, destructive failure.

There is only just so much you can do to stop bad things. Local licensing does very little to guarantee proper workmanship, planning, layout, and execution. My advice is to focus on keeping your own house in order then market your superiority to your clients. Those who can appreciate how professional you are will willingly pay for your services. Those who try the cheap Charlie route will still end up calling you only now it will cost more to correct the mess. Instead of cursing these messes, think of them as job security and are blessings that feed your family.

You can take the homeowner to court and collect for the service call or you can just write it off and move on. I've been preaching here for 5 yrs to carry cameras and document everything. I've been preaching to get your business SOP in order which includes what you tell the homeowner at the time of scheduling the appt. and what they get. Some companies won't schedule until a base charge has been run through their credit card for just such cases. Know your local laws and protect yourself. Some companies are requiring a homeowner email back acceptance of the terms of service contract to support claims in small claims courts.

I charge a base fee to come out inspect and consult on the suitability and viability of an installation. The estimate is free but you pay for my inspection and consultation. Then, if you elect to have be service it, my other fees apply but regardless I walk out the door with a check. The only time I got stiffed was by a biker on drugs who threatened to kill me and I ran for my life.

Let's leave our fascist socialists gov't alone--they have their hands full with screwing up the country already without adding another bureaucracy to it.

Hearthman

[sktn77a]

Need Federal Licensing!!!! Fed Up With Hacks!

First of all, nobody can agree on what are the national standards as to what is right and wrong.

If they can do it for medicine, there's no reason it can't be done for HVAC!

[Twilly]

Twilli says thats exactly what we need another license and no one to enforce existing codes. Great idea.

[wood-row68]

More government intervention will not solve anything. They have too much control the way it is now you know they would raise your taxes to pay for govern the trade and these hacks would still be out there. So with that being said don’t you think that these people that hire those hacks get what they pay for and that the word of mouth will put them out of work sooner or later, just my two cents!!!

[davefr]

Need Federal Licensing!!!! Fed Up With Hacks!



If they can do it for medicine, there's no reason it can't be done for HVAC!

OK, let's propose 4 years undergraduate study in science and physics. Now let's allow those with the best GPA's to enter a 2-4 year series of courses in HVAC. Now let's those that graduate go on to practice under a pro. Now they can get a license to practice HVAC!!

[bmathews]

Honestly, licensing and codes are only as good as enforcement. I've seen some pretty bad jobs that I have no idea how they passed inspection and I know they were inspected. We also have licensing in Texas. So it really is nothing more than a money grab for the cities, states, etc... I'll get a job like that sometimes, where it is so f#%ked up there is nothing to do but blow it up and start over. But nobody wants to pay and they don't want to pay for your service call. Just smile and walk away and chalk it up to being part of the job on occasion. Your life isn't going to end because of it, so don't sweat it.

[ChuckHVAC]

I am not a fan of national licensing, if you already have local licensing how would national licensing change anything? The hacks and the tight wads will always be out there getting around any system.
I do agree with the frustration expressed in your rant. It does seem that we spend way too much time cleaning up other peoples messes. The original installer rips the customer off and makes some quick easy money, but when we have to tell the owner that it will cost big bucks just to straighten it out they sometimes treat us like we are the thiefs!

[Toolboy]

Here in Wisconsin, we require a license for an HVAC company. Unfortunately, the only requirement is that you pass a ridiculous test that is about 90% Industrial and commercial, and maybe 10% residential. Our state is about 90% residential and 10% other. The second biggest problem is that since you only need a business license, one guy with a license can hire three kids off the street who know nothing, give them a van and a uniform, and Viola! they are HVAC Pro's. (you can also buy an existing company with a license and do not have to meet any requirements). We need a program like plumbers have in our state, individual licensing with an apprenticeship program.
Great Topic! Thanks.
PS. I agree with "Hearthman", Great input!

[timebuilder]

I am not a fan of national licensing, if you already have local licensing how would national licensing change anything? The hacks and the tight wads will always be out there getting around any system.
I do agree with the frustration expressed in your rant. It does seem that we spend way too much time cleaning up other peoples messes. The original installer rips the customer off and makes some quick easy money, but when we have to tell the owner that it will cost big bucks just to straighten it out they sometimes treat us like we are the thiefs!

But wait. That homeowner just got his steak cooked without any "extra costs." Isn't that what homeowners want?

Bbbbbwwwhahahahahahahahhahah!!!!!!!

[woodsman]

As long as equipment is being bought from the internet there will be unlicensed, uninsured hacks doing hvac work.

[lamrith]

More government intervention will not solve anything. They have too much control the way it is now you know they would raise your taxes to pay for govern the trade and these hacks would still be out there. So with that being said don’t you think that these people that hire those hacks get what they pay for and that the word of mouth will put them out of work sooner or later, just my two cents!!!

I would tend to agree, but the isue is there are SOOOOO many installers and where do you get word of mouth from? Some of these hacks can put in a system that to the common homeowner is fine, until it fails 5-10years later, or it may never fail, but that does not mean it was done right. So you can't rely on your neighbor for a referal, or anyone else. Total Catch 22. And knowing in advance if someone is a hack is difficult, unless you have spent time on this site researching and learning what to ask, and some key phrasing to try and "spook" the quoter so he thinks your not clueless.

But I do not think a Federal licensing would really help unfortunately. It is going to come down to HO/customers doing ALLOT of background reasearch vefore calling in quoters which most will not do. That is the only way to get rid of the hacks thru lack of work imo.

[BNME8EZ]

I was pushing for a state licence here, created by HVAC pros, enforced by the government. It would set a varifiable standard of installation that the inspector could follow, equipment could not be purchased without a licence, it had a journyman apprentice program - no apprentice on the job without journeyman or higher, if you hacked in a job that didn't pass inspection and got caught you fixed it FREE, it had residential, light commercial, commercial, and inductrial sections that could not be crossed ie no res. work on a lht com licence etc, HOs could buy equipment for big box but would have to use the dealers licence & dealer would be responsable. testing would be about more than just sadety issues, I could go on. So here is what happened. A letter and survey got passed around at all the service schools and meetings I went to, a trainer for a local distributor passed it around at his schools, a training facility passed it around at those classes, 90% of the dealers and techs that saw the outline liked the idea and signed the responce sheet. I sent the letter and sign up sheet to all the distributors I could come up with along with a letter asking them to just put it on their counter, they didn't even have to endorse it just put it out where Techs could see it and if they wanted to send it out with sales reps would be great. I got a 100% responce back from the distribs, "We think it is a good idea but are affraid it will make out customers mad so we won't do it" I even followed up with phone calls to many of them and got the same responce. So it died.

[probe]

I lost a quote to some menonites in my town. Vent pipe is exhausting 5 inches away from a single pain 50 year old window. Nice guy that i am i told the homeowners father-inlaw that it is not safe. That was a year ago and nobody changed it.

[davefr]

As long as equipment is being bought from the internet there will be unlicensed, uninsured hacks doing hvac work.

Licensed contractors probably do far more "hack" work then everyone else combined. (based on the sheer number of them).

Internet sales are a drop in the bucket.

Quality work begins with the management philosophy of the company. I really don't think techs. want to do "hack" installs. Either they don't have the skills, aptitude or training for the job or they aren't given the time to do things right.

[lamrith]

Licensed contractors probably do far more "hack" work then everyone else combined. (based on the sheer number of them).

Internet sales are a drop in the bucket.

Quality work begins with the management philosophy of the company. I really don't think techs. want to do "hack" installs. Either they don't have the skills, aptitude or training for the job or they aren't given the time to do things right.

GREAT POINT. even good companies and installers can do less than stellar work when they are "back against a wall"
d for scheduling, short handed, or have a new crew member. A Key is brining concerns up to the installer, salesperson, etc politely and respectfully. With a new guy, they may not even know he is doing it wrong, and letting them know helps not only the HO, but the HVAC Co as they can correct the problem asap. Saves everyone in the long run.

[timebuilder]

Licensed contractors probably do far more "hack" work then everyone else combined. (based on the sheer number of them).

Alert the media!!!!!!!

OK, sarcasm aside, I'm dumbfounded that someone could make such assertion without even anecdotal evidence of at least a handful of licensed contractors doing "hack" work, much less the result of a real study by some advocacy or oversight group.

When I see hacky work, it is invariable a cousin of "joey."

[ChuckHVAC]

When I see hacky work, it is invariable a cousin of "joey."

Same here, I'm not talking about the minor stuff that might might slip past an inspector. I mean the really bad and unsafe stuff. There are exceptions to every general statement, but mostly the licensed contractors around here do a pretty good job.

[MoleculeMan]

Licensing guarantees nothing. I have seen plenty of shortcuts and 'hacks' made by other licensed professionals (how many times have you seen floor joists decimated by a plumber, cheap outlets installed by electricians, etc.) Those who want to do quality work will spend the extra time to get educated and do the job right. Most homeowners, if your upfront with them (and you educate them) will pay to have a professional job done. Those who don't want to pay up will always find a hack, licensed or not, to do a cheap job.