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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    30

    Honeywell VAV Control

    Hi everyone,

    We are looking at a possible staged upgrade path for our Dual VAV controllers. Our current installation is an old (approx 10 years) Honeywell C-Bus system, and the reason for upgrade is that the multicontrollers above the VAV controllers are failing and no longer being made.

    We are in the progress of upgrading to EBI from XBS, but instead of that bag of worms, I'd like to instead ask: What is the new VAV control from Honeywell? The only thing I can seem to find is Excel 10s, which still look like they operate on C-Bus. I'd like to get everything onto something more standard, especially if we have to do a large upgrade that replaces sections of our system at a time.

    We also need fan coil control, but everything else is on custom DDC controllers which look like they have a better upgrade path. Any suggestions? Thanks!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    steeler nation
    Posts
    2,074
    xl10 are lon controllers. honeywell also makes the spyder which can be lon (sort of) or bacnet but must be programmed with webs (honeywells version of tridium).
    IV IV IX

    use your head for something other than a hat rack.......Gerry

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    30
    Even though they are LON devices, it looks like they use LON to communicate only with other controllers. The zone manager looks like it converts this LON to C-Bus. Is there another device to send it over ethernet to the EBI server? Sorry for the basic questions, just trying to see how this would work for us.

    Unfortunately tridium isn't really good for our installation we were told, as the C-Bus driver is only in a specific version and won't work for our room controllers. But this was just what I was told, and could be wrong.

    Thanks!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    323
    XL10's could easily be brought into a Tridium JACE, and then the JACE can interface to the EBI via BACnet. This would eliminate the ancient Zone Managers. Any logic that is currently in the Zone Manager or is sent from a C-bus controller through the ZM would have to be redone in the JACE and/or sent through the EBI to the JACE.

    There's no reason to mix Spyders into the mix though.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    30
    Thanks guys, I assume the WEBs controllers are then compatible with EBI as well? These are the tridium JACEs correct? Something like the WEB-403 which is non-AX specific is what I was thinking of.

    I really wish there was some way we could have bargained for the Tridium HMI as the more I read about EBI the more worried I become

    Are there any EBI success stories out there?

  6. #6
    Honeywell's answer to upgrading the system to EBI is to use LNS. The XL10VAV controllers could be re-integrated into an LNS controlled lon network

    Right now you probably have zone managers converting the LON data from the XL10s into C-Bus datapoints
    The re-intgration into an LNS controllled network is pretty easy.
    part one.

    The XL10VAVs are recreated in a new CARE project and then the original parameters are uploaded into the CARE project. this part is pretty straight forward. CARE can do LON management (binding, commissioning, adding new devices, etc). iLon or Loytec FTT-10 to IP routers would be installed to connect the VAV Lon busses to the EBI server

    Part Two.
    The next part is where everyone is complaining. EBI doesn't support the LON database that CARE has created. CARE has an "LNS Synchronize" function where it recreates the lon portion of its project as a LNS database. CARE can directly connect to a EBI server (Via TCP/IP) and create a LNS database (LNSTurbo 3.2 in the latest version of EBI) on the EBI server.
    CARE creates a LNS database and then uses LNS to recommission everything.
    EBI can then "see" this LNS database and it has some wizards to add the LON devices to it's own database for grahical viewing.
    EBI doesnt have any LNS managment capabilitiy directly. It cant directly re-commission, add or replace any failed lon devices.
    The ,Honeywell supplied, LNS plugins for the VAVs do have menu options for replacing controllers, I think the plugin can also recommission a new Xl5000 (c-bus) controller once CARE has loaded it's application
    The LNSObjectBrowser (which is part of LNS 3.2) can be used to replace any LON routers or third party(Non XL10, or XL5000 controllers) Lon controllers. (or CARE can replace thew router and "re-synchronize" to the LNS database.
    Any changes to the LNS database (additions, moving devices onto a new FTT-10 channel, changins bindings, etc) must be done in the CARE project and then "re-synchronized" to the LNS database.

    Everyone is upset about the whole LNS "synchronization" thing. it is a little complex and easy to screw up. But when it is done right it works beautifully, and can be managed even for the largest installations (thousands of LON devices and many third party lon devices).

    Honeywell also has an XL1000 (XLWEB) controller that is programmed in CARE. This controller has a BACNet interface instead of the C-Bus protocol used by the Xl5000 product line. This controller has some really enhanced functionality and capabilities. It's really big in Europe and is making its way to the U.S.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    520
    Quote Originally Posted by choosewisely View Post
    Honeywell's answer to upgrading the system to EBI is to use LNS. The XL10VAV controllers could be re-integrated into an LNS controlled lon network

    Right now you probably have zone managers converting the LON data from the XL10s into C-Bus datapoints
    The re-intgration into an LNS controllled network is pretty easy.
    part one.

    The XL10VAVs are recreated in a new CARE project and then the original parameters are uploaded into the CARE project. this part is pretty straight forward. CARE can do LON management (binding, commissioning, adding new devices, etc). iLon or Loytec FTT-10 to IP routers would be installed to connect the VAV Lon busses to the EBI server

    Part Two.
    The next part is where everyone is complaining. EBI doesn't support the LON database that CARE has created. CARE has an "LNS Synchronize" function where it recreates the lon portion of its project as a LNS database. CARE can directly connect to a EBI server (Via TCP/IP) and create a LNS database (LNSTurbo 3.2 in the latest version of EBI) on the EBI server.
    CARE creates a LNS database and then uses LNS to recommission everything.
    EBI can then "see" this LNS database and it has some wizards to add the LON devices to it's own database for grahical viewing.
    EBI doesnt have any LNS managment capabilitiy directly. It cant directly re-commission, add or replace any failed lon devices.
    The ,Honeywell supplied, LNS plugins for the VAVs do have menu options for replacing controllers, I think the plugin can also recommission a new Xl5000 (c-bus) controller once CARE has loaded it's application
    The LNSObjectBrowser (which is part of LNS 3.2) can be used to replace any LON routers or third party(Non XL10, or XL5000 controllers) Lon controllers. (or CARE can replace thew router and "re-synchronize" to the LNS database.
    Any changes to the LNS database (additions, moving devices onto a new FTT-10 channel, changins bindings, etc) must be done in the CARE project and then "re-synchronized" to the LNS database.

    Everyone is upset about the whole LNS "synchronization" thing. it is a little complex and easy to screw up. But when it is done right it works beautifully, and can be managed even for the largest installations (thousands of LON devices and many third party lon devices).

    Honeywell also has an XL1000 (XLWEB) controller that is programmed in CARE. This controller has a BACNet interface instead of the C-Bus protocol used by the Xl5000 product line. This controller has some really enhanced functionality and capabilities. It's really big in Europe and is making its way to the U.S.
    Only skip part 2 and use a better LNS tool like Lonmaker or Lonwatcher or Circon NI and set up and commission the controllers. EBI uses a point server to bring in the LON points that's fairly straightforward. It's CARE that requires synchronization, not EBI.

    The other thing you need to do is create xml files for any non-Honeywell controllers in your network. They have a decent wizard for that, but you may need to edit the resulting files.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    30
    The only problem is the age of what we have right now, our current VAV controllers are R7457A1000 as here: http://europe.hbc.honeywell.com/hist...ocs/R7457.html

    I do not believe these are LON devices, as the documentation says they use some proprietary R-Bus communication line to the R7451A which converts that to C-Bus.

    If this is the case, would the best upgrade path be to replace with Spyders as becomes necessary? Would there be any major problems to running both these old VAV controllers along side the Spyders? Or any other suggestions? Thanks! This is very helpful guys.

    [edit] Just noticed the Spyders seem to require programming via Tridium...oh well.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    30
    The good news is that these issues have brought us to ask more questions to Honeywell about EBI. Just another question for you guys...as a long term solution (10-15 years) which software looks to be the continuing one?

    To me it looks like EBI is dying out, and Niagara AX is gaining more momentum. Is that an accurate assessment? Or is Honeywell planning to replace both soon with a new software?

    Thanks again

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Fort Worth\Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    1,700
    For a long term solution I would go with AX, it is progressively being developed and far more flexible in my opinion. I doubt Honeywell do away with EBI anytime soon. This is the primary solution for the Honeywell Branch. EBI has it's usefullness in regards to a total building solution in regards to HVAC, fire alarm, and card access.
    Go Rangers!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ctrlguy View Post
    Only skip part 2 and use a better LNS tool like Lonmaker or Lonwatcher or Circon NI and set up and commission the controllers. EBI uses a point server to bring in the LON points that's fairly straightforward. It's CARE that requires synchronization, not EBI.

    The other thing you need to do is create xml files for any non-Honeywell controllers in your network. They have a decent wizard for that, but you may need to edit the resulting files.
    OK, Let me restate.
    If you want to use only Honeywell supplied software then it's the LNS database that requires a "Re-Synchronization" when changes are made. EBI doesnt have the ability to manage a LNS database. CARE has to be used to change it's proprietary LON database and then ,during the Re-Synchronize, CARE opens the LNS databse (either locally or remotely) and re-creates the changes in the LNS database.
    One frustrating item. during the Re-Synchronization, CARE decides by itself what changes to make to the LNS database. Many times, CARE "touches" devices in the LNS database that you didnt want it to (or expect it to).
    Sometimes a whole subnet of VAV controllers gets re-commissioned and there CPs set back to what CARE has in it's project file (Effectively setting the setpoints back to CARE default values, wiping out changes the end user may have made). CARE does tell you what it is going to do during the Re-synchronization, but CARE doesnt give you the chance to tell it what to do.

    We have done a couple of jobs using Lonmaker instead of CARE to create the LNS database, but startup of large jobs (with multiple technicians using multiple notebooks, where the front end is not set up until later in the job) doesnt make this very easy.

    Like I said before, when the system is desinged right, and service is handled properly, Even the largest jobs are succesfull and EVERYONE IS HAPPY.


    Quote Originally Posted by Droshi View Post
    The good news is that these issues have brought us to ask more questions to Honeywell about EBI. Just another question for you guys...as a long term solution (10-15 years) which software looks to be the continuing one?

    To me it looks like EBI is dying out, and Niagara AX is gaining more momentum. Is that an accurate assessment? Or is Honeywell planning to replace both soon with a new software?

    Thanks again
    There are really three platforms we are talking about here.
    EBI
    CARE
    Niagara AX

    I dont think that anyone really know what is going to happen. ALL THREE platforms are currently being developed and there are long term plans for each three.
    A new version of EBI/SymmetrE is due out at the end of the year
    A new version of CARE was just released. the XL800 controller was recently released, the XLWEB (also called the XL1000) is a fully developed product that is big in Europe and starting to make itself know in the U.S.
    Everyone seems to love AX for it's simple installs

    But the long term plans are all handled at a corporate level in Honeywell. it's business models that drive everything, not us installers



    Quote Originally Posted by lwarren View Post
    For a long term solution I would go with AX, it is progressively being developed and far more flexible in my opinion. I doubt Honeywell do away with EBI anytime soon. This is the primary solution for the Honeywell Branch. EBI has it's usefullness in regards to a total building solution in regards to HVAC, fire alarm, and card access.

    for a long term solution, I would go with rocks. other than that, who knows

  12. #12
    Take a look at the Infocon AX Drivers: http://www.easyio-solution.com/infoc...ns-driver-list

  13. #13

    Spyder to Symmetre

    Quote Originally Posted by choosewisely View Post
    Honeywell's answer to upgrading the system to EBI is to use LNS. The XL10VAV controllers could be re-integrated into an LNS controlled lon network

    Right now you probably have zone managers converting the LON data from the XL10s into C-Bus datapoints
    The re-intgration into an LNS controllled network is pretty easy.
    part one.

    The XL10VAVs are recreated in a new CARE project and then the original parameters are uploaded into the CARE project. this part is pretty straight forward. CARE can do LON management (binding, commissioning, adding new devices, etc). iLon or Loytec FTT-10 to IP routers would be installed to connect the VAV Lon busses to the EBI server

    Part Two.
    The next part is where everyone is complaining. EBI doesn't support the LON database that CARE has created. CARE has an "LNS Synchronize" function where it recreates the lon portion of its project as a LNS database. CARE can directly connect to a EBI server (Via TCP/IP) and create a LNS database (LNSTurbo 3.2 in the latest version of EBI) on the EBI server.
    CARE creates a LNS database and then uses LNS to recommission everything.
    EBI can then "see" this LNS database and it has some wizards to add the LON devices to it's own database for grahical viewing.
    EBI doesnt have any LNS managment capabilitiy directly. It cant directly re-commission, add or replace any failed lon devices.
    The ,Honeywell supplied, LNS plugins for the VAVs do have menu options for replacing controllers, I think the plugin can also recommission a new Xl5000 (c-bus) controller once CARE has loaded it's application
    The LNSObjectBrowser (which is part of LNS 3.2) can be used to replace any LON routers or third party(Non XL10, or XL5000 controllers) Lon controllers. (or CARE can replace thew router and "re-synchronize" to the LNS database.
    Any changes to the LNS database (additions, moving devices onto a new FTT-10 channel, changins bindings, etc) must be done in the CARE project and then "re-synchronized" to the LNS database.

    Everyone is upset about the whole LNS "synchronization" thing. it is a little complex and easy to screw up. But when it is done right it works beautifully, and can be managed even for the largest installations (thousands of LON devices and many third party lon devices).

    Honeywell also has an XL1000 (XLWEB) controller that is programmed in CARE. This controller has a BACNet interface instead of the C-Bus protocol used by the Xl5000 product line. This controller has some really enhanced functionality and capabilities. It's really big in Europe and is making its way to the U.S.


    Is it possible to connect the Spyder unitary controller to LIP Router (LIP-3ECTB) then connect it to Symmetre? If yes, can you please tell me the requirement (Software/Hardware) to do this job. Thanks

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