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Thread: R22 vs R-410

  1. #1

    R22 vs R-410

    Homeowner with a 1991 split system heat-pump now. A/C Contractor friend says it's time to upgrade to a 13-seer R22 unit. Says that I should not wait until later because of the R22 phaseout. Says R-410a not good choice in the desert because R-410a loses significant efficiency (like 40%) at 130-140 degrees, which is likely in a desert attic in the summer. Says he has clients who's R-410a units run continuously in the summer, doesn't cool their house, pay higher electric bills. Also says the new units come with two-speed motors and that they are very expensive to replace. Says warranties also not as good on the R-410a units. The proposed R22 system has a 10-year warranty. Obvious drawback to the R22 system is that R22 freon will get harder to get and will be pricier over time. Any advice or thoughts?

  2. #2
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    I would be leary of anyone pushing R22.
    But 410 does lose capacity in very high temps.
    The 130-140 temps in attics occur in other areas too. It's the outdoor air temp that matters.
    What's he going to do when he can't get anymore 22 units?
    "Hey Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort." And he says, "there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice. - Carl Spackler

  3. #3
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    Would you buy a new car with R12 in lieu of 134a? You would be one of the very few.

    Says R-410a not good choice in the desert because R-410a loses significant efficiency (like 40%) at 130-140 degrees, which is likely in a desert attic in the summer.
    You don't live in a warmer desert climate than western Arizona and we have had no issues when properly sized ,installed and CHARGED. Yes R410a does drop off faster than R22 at 120* but R22 drops off faster at 100*. That is what a proper manual J ans S is for.

    Also says the new units come with two-speed motors and that they are very expensive to replace. Says warranties also not as good on the R-410a units.
    High end systems of R410a AND R22 use variable speed indoor blowers and have for many years ( 1987 I think). These motors are very dependable if tied to a proper duct system ( manual D) and offer higher comfort.

    Says warranties also not as good on the R-410a units.
    I think your friend doesn't know what he is talking about.
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  4. #4
    Your friend doesnt appear to have as much knowledge as he thinks. I have been installing 410 systems for 10 years now, nothing wrong at all with them, warranties are actually better, for most manufacturers.

  5. #5
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    Your friend is right about performance in high temps. but that has to be the temp where the condenser is. Not the air handler.

    R410A systems do not automatically come with 2 speed fans. Nor with less warranties.
    Just like R22 systems. Depends on the brand, and model line.

    Your friend is spouting enough BS. That you should get other estimates.

    There is nothing wrong with getting another R22 unit.
    but your friend is not telling you the truth.
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  6. #6
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    Your friend might have got a good deal on some r22 units, I know some of my dealers are trying to empty thier 22 stock. As far as internal components you can get identical equipment just one leaves with 22 and one with 410a. As far as residential equipment goes i have not set a 22 unit in over a year. Why put a unit in with 22 when they are stoping production of it. then in ten years you are going to say that little more for 410a sure would have been worth it because you cant get 22 so you have to remove all the refrigerant, flush the system, and charge it with Nu-22 or some other blend when all you needed was two pounds of 22.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by murphsurfaz View Post
    Obvious drawback to the R22 system is that R22 freon will get harder to get and will be pricier over time. Any advice or thoughts?
    That's scare tactics. These systems don't consume refrigerant. The only time that refrigerant is needed is if there's a leak.

    You can even get R-12 now even though it's phased out. By the same token you'll be able to get R-22 well into the future. R-22 is much more abundant then R-12.

    Make your decision based on data and logic and not scare tactics.

  8. #8
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    There are lot's of direct drop-ins for R-22 now so don't worry about it.

  9. #9
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    But that drop in is going to be a huge expense compared to just a small top off

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by steadfastair View Post
    Why put a unit in with 22 when they are stoping production of it. then in ten years you are going to say that little more for 410a sure would have been worth it because you cant get 22 so you have to remove all the refrigerant,
    Explain that.

    They haven't made R12, for over 15 years. And its still available.

    R22 will be available for more then 10 years.
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  11. #11
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    Reguardless of what freon is avalible. ( r12 is about $ a can which is why its still ona shelf somewhere)

    your friend is a moron. goto lowes, get duct tape and use the whole roll on him.

    A unit that runs all day wasnt sized properly. attics in va get to 130 deg easy bla bla I can go on

    I do recomend a higher seer then 13 if you live in a high temp climate. Since you would expectedly log more run hours per season, any higher seer rating will turn over larger savings.
    Last edited by beenthere; 10-22-2009 at 11:01 PM. Reason: Removed price

  12. #12
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    Your contractor friend

    Quote Originally Posted by murphsurfaz View Post
    Homeowner with a 1991 split system heat-pump now. A/C Contractor friend says it's time to upgrade to a 13-seer R22 unit. Says that I should not wait until later because of the R22 phaseout. Says R-410a not good choice in the desert because R-410a loses significant efficiency (like 40%) at 130-140 degrees, which is likely in a desert attic in the summer. Says he has clients who's R-410a units run continuously in the summer, doesn't cool their house, pay higher electric bills. Also says the new units come with two-speed motors and that they are very expensive to replace. Says warranties also not as good on the R-410a units. The proposed R22 system has a 10-year warranty. Obvious drawback to the R22 system is that R22 freon will get harder to get and will be pricier over time. Any advice or thoughts?

    Your contractor friend is basically right.

    Premium R22 Heat Pump equipment is getting very scarce.

    13 seer equipment will operate much cheaper than your current system.
    (generally quieter too).

    If you do have to go with 410a in your climate do not under size.
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    half vast experience and ideas.
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