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  1. #27
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    Jul 2008
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    Rochester NY
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    Instead of putting plastic in the ground and using water as an intermediate medium of heat transfer, you put copper in the ground and go direct. Hence direct exchange.

    Requires much less drilling, and a lot of refrigerant.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    Denver/Boulder
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    2,285
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Instead of putting plastic in the ground and using water as an intermediate medium of heat transfer, you put copper in the ground and go direct. Hence direct exchange.

    Requires much less drilling, and a lot of refrigerant.
    yes, yes, and yes.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.


    Two pressures, four temperatures = SUCCESS!


    Boulder Heating Contractor


    For Consumers:

    For HVACR Professionals:


  3. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    forney texas
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    17,890
    Quote Originally Posted by darctangent View Post
    yes, yes, and yes.
    Ok, I see where you are coming from. Next question. Why not just break out the torch and repair the leak in the coil?

  4. #30
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    Mar 2006
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    Denver/Boulder
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmanko View Post
    Ok, I see where you are coming from. Next question. Why not just break out the torch and repair the leak in the coil?
    you are a tough crowd.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.


    Two pressures, four temperatures = SUCCESS!


    Boulder Heating Contractor


    For Consumers:

    For HVACR Professionals:


  5. #31
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    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
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    :-)

    Bring a big recovery tank!
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denver/Boulder
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    2,285
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    :-)

    Bring a big recovery tank!
    I'll take the cost of 2 jugs of refrigerant over the cost of drilling 3-5 times as much. I can also use better grout for better heat transfer.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.


    Two pressures, four temperatures = SUCCESS!


    Boulder Heating Contractor


    For Consumers:

    For HVACR Professionals:


  7. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    374
    Quote Originally Posted by darctangent View Post
    I'll take the cost of 2 jugs of refrigerant over the cost of drilling 3-5 times as much. I can also use better grout for better heat transfer.
    Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?

  8. #34
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    Jul 2008
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    Rochester NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by darctangent View Post
    I'll take the cost of 2 jugs of refrigerant over the cost of drilling 3-5 times as much. I can also use better grout for better heat transfer.
    Darctangent, are you being argumentative or trying to educate?

    If you are trying to educate it would be great if your posts had a bit more substance. For example, you could state that a direct exchange system uses 4lb + 4lb per ton, or a discussion about enhanced thermal grout/silica mixes and what you mean about your ability to use "better grout".

    Without that detail you might simply appear argumentative. That's my

    Quote Originally Posted by can2man View Post
    Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?
    I believe you have 70 ft cores with 1-2 per ton. Not really set up for trenches yet, but they are experimenting with it in Tennessee, along with using the foundation perimeter on new homes. COP's are available at ahri I believe.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    374
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Darctangent, are you being argumentative or trying to educate?

    If you are trying to educate it would be great if your posts had a bit more substance. For example, you could state that a direct exchange system uses 4lb + 4lb per ton, or a discussion about enhanced thermal grout/silica mixes and what you mean about your ability to use "better grout".

    Without that detail you might simply appear argumentative. That's my



    I believe you have 70 ft cores with 1-2 per ton. Not really set up for trenches yet, but they are experimenting with it in Tennessee, along with using the foundation perimeter on new homes. COP's are available at ahri I believe.
    Thank you

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    Denver/Boulder
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    2,285
    I've got to get ready for an install tomorrow so this will be a little brief, but I'll try to cover some territory here.

    Quote Originally Posted by can2man View Post
    Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?
    It depends on the application, but 3/8 & 1/2 or 5/8 are typical. When it comes to length, again system design will vary, but with vertical and diagonal bore holes you are talking about (1)100ft bore per ton with 100ft down, 100ft up so 200ft of tubing per ton, plus the copper to get back to the heat pump. I have never had a system that was designed for horizontal loops, but as I recall there are similar figures for that as well. COPs vary dependent on ground temp and soil conditions, but about 3 to 4.5. Nominal charge is about 7 lbs/ per ton on forced air with Domestic hot water, less on hydronic only systems. Charge is a little hard to explain, but very very easy to do. It relates to the metering system which is proprietary to Eathlinked. Suffice to say the metering system is like the old school refrigerators with a float arm in a reservoir of refrigerant. It sounds odd by modern thinking, but it's actually very efficient.- that's just part of it though- it's actually quite hard to explain in print only.
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Darctangent, are you being argumentative or trying to educate?

    If you are trying to educate it would be great if your posts had a bit more substance. For example, you could state that a direct exchange system uses 4lb + 4lb per ton, or a discussion about enhanced thermal grout/silica mixes and what you mean about your ability to use "better grout".

    Without that detail you might simply appear argumentative. That's my



    I believe you have 70 ft cores with 1-2 per ton. Not really set up for trenches yet, but they are experimenting with it in Tennessee, along with using the foundation perimeter on new homes. COP's are available at ahri I believe.
    Not trying to argue at all. If you read back to where this all started, I was simply pointing out that there is more to geothermal/ground source than water based systems. Then I got multiple responses essentially denying what I was saying. If there was an argument, it was about the requirement of using water in ground source systems. If you read back, I pointed out that I thought there were advantages and disadvantages to water source (as apposed to DX) Neither technology is perfect.

    On grout, bentonite based grout has a really nasty habit of stratifying in the bore hole causing the grout to fall away from the tubing and therefore poor thermal conductivity. My last two jobs I've used a cementitious grout called "supergrout"

    Another point- as I referenced earlier, horizontal loops do exist, and in some areas are the preferred method of install, but that in not the case in Colorado.

    All of this is dependant on the design laid out by the manufacturer, in this case Eathlinked.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.


    Two pressures, four temperatures = SUCCESS!


    Boulder Heating Contractor


    For Consumers:

    For HVACR Professionals:


  11. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,728
    I'm no better at avoiding getting sucked in. Key is attempt to just give good information, particularly in response to ignorant and argumentative posts. Read Beenthere's stuff, he's usually really good at this (and some of the other guys).

    To some extent this is like kindergarten, everybody making noise wanting attention, but much is just noise without substance. People reading quickly sort through a lot of chaff to find good seeds. Only so much can stick (why fill the grey up with garbage, right?). The childish posts tend to blow away like deleting junk mail.

    Just thinking a lot of your stuff has seeds. Don't let others suck you into posting chaff.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    314

    IF YOU LIVE IN MICHIGAN-its not worth the trouble

    I worked for a company that sold waterfurnace and I think it was called international units. They got something back in arounds 1500 tax credit. The systems worked great once tuned in and would have a pay back of 100% in 11 years. But WOW the up front cost, did I say WOW, we did pond, horizontal earth closed loop, vertical well closed loop, and pump and dump.
    Here is what the fancy brochures leave out:

    Your yard / landscaping will need a complete overhaul once the heavy equipment is out, so if you can aford a GEO chances are you will at least have to replace about 10 - 15 grand in landscaping.
    Well drilling company - about 2000 a hole 4-6 in at 150 feet down.
    Dive team for pond loop - about 120 an hour.
    Heavy equipment rental is around 1600 a week for a loader and backhoe.
    Glycol - lots of the alien slime.
    A mile of sheet metal for your air handling units.
    Lots and lots of time for tuning.
    2 in diameter pipes punching through your basement wall (real fun to work with especially when they are cold).
    The actual water to air units weigh a lot so heavy some of the bigger members of your crew handy.
    Low end Geo for a small home was about 30-40,000 dollars at 2500-4000 ft squared and about 65-120,000 dollars at 5000-12000 ft squared homes

    Just wanted to let you know some of the un-glorious things about GEO, it is a great idea, but not in the north for small companies trying to profit. Just a headache, schools make it seem great (mine did), but unless you are out trying to sell people this stuff and trying to put it in then I would not waste my time with my nose in a book trying to memorize calculations and practicing design principals. You need to find a local that does it, volunteer to help on a system and get your own perspective, I know after getting out of the HVACR design program at school and actually doing it I was left with a sour taste.

    But IGSHPA is the source for all GEO.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denver/Boulder
    Posts
    2,285
    Quote Originally Posted by durussel78 View Post
    I worked for a company that sold waterfurnace and I think it was called international units. They got something back in arounds 1500 tax credit. The systems worked great once tuned in and would have a pay back of 100% in 11 years. But WOW the up front cost, did I say WOW, we did pond, horizontal earth closed loop, vertical well closed loop, and pump and dump.
    Here is what the fancy brochures leave out:

    Your yard / landscaping will need a complete overhaul once the heavy equipment is out, so if you can aford a GEO chances are you will at least have to replace about 10 - 15 grand in landscaping.
    Well drilling company - about 2000 a hole 4-6 in at 150 feet down.
    Dive team for pond loop - about 120 an hour.
    Heavy equipment rental is around 1600 a week for a loader and backhoe.
    Glycol - lots of the alien slime.
    A mile of sheet metal for your air handling units.
    Lots and lots of time for tuning.
    2 in diameter pipes punching through your basement wall (real fun to work with especially when they are cold).
    The actual water to air units weigh a lot so heavy some of the bigger members of your crew handy.
    Low end Geo for a small home was about 30-40,000 dollars at 2500-4000 ft squared and about 65-120,000 dollars at 5000-12000 ft squared homes

    Just wanted to let you know some of the un-glorious things about GEO, it is a great idea, but not in the north for small companies trying to profit. Just a headache, schools make it seem great (mine did), but unless you are out trying to sell people this stuff and trying to put it in then I would not waste my time with my nose in a book trying to memorize calculations and practicing design principals. You need to find a local that does it, volunteer to help on a system and get your own perspective, I know after getting out of the HVACR design program at school and actually doing it I was left with a sour taste.

    But IGSHPA is the source for all GEO.
    have you read this thread or not?
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.


    Two pressures, four temperatures = SUCCESS!


    Boulder Heating Contractor


    For Consumers:

    For HVACR Professionals:


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