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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    mn.
    Posts
    24
    I just got done reading this thread and I am now having second thoughts. I have a meeting with Water Furnace on Monday to become a dealer here in MN. and I don't know if this is even worth pursuing. I want to become a green contractor and sell things like this. But not if it is not going to make me any money or be a huge pita. Can any of you tell me if its worth trying or is it just a waste of my time, Thanks.

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    forney texas
    Posts
    17,890
    They will reduce power bills by a lot, but if you have no background in them, it would be better to talk with a competitor to see if you could go on some installs and service calls before you get your feet wet.

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    mn.
    Posts
    24
    Water Furnace says that they will train me on Installation. I would be surprised if a competitor would train me to compete with them.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,732
    heebe, you heat with oil or propane? Any relatives that do? Might be the place to start. Geo is a no-brainer if you don't have natural gas, and getting your feet wet on a house you have unlimited access to will help accelerate your learning curve and keep mistakes from being so expensive.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    mn.
    Posts
    24
    That is a good Idea. Thanks.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Lexington South Carolina
    Posts
    17

    Dangers of using direct copper in the ground

    Quote Originally Posted by darctangent View Post
    yes, yes, and yes.
    I researched a company up north innovating in geo, burying refrigerant lines in the ground. It is particularly great if it touches or is bathed in water. Heat transfer can be very efficient, but there is a very big BUT!

    Standard water lines copper lines can corrode and / or develop pinhole leaks at 20 years, depends on quality of copper and what kind of water runs through them. That is why cities try and make city water slightly alkaline.

    Traditional hvac copper properly soldered (and it isn't 40% of the time, in my experience) generally does not deteriorate from the inside, often can be reused, but what happens when you run long copper suction, liquid line sets and bury them in an environment that is even slightly acidic? The lines may develop leaks from the outside going in.

    Wanna fix it? Wanna guarantee your work and repair developed leaks for free?

    There is a reason modern geo drillers and installers use polypropolene or similar stuff. The stuff has to work long term. Best thing to do with a line set is sink it in a large body of water if possible.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,732
    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Manapat View Post
    Standard water lines copper lines can corrode and / or develop pinhole leaks at 20 years, depends on quality of copper and what kind of water runs through them. That is why cities try and make city water slightly alkaline.

    Wanna fix it? Wanna guarantee your work and repair developed leaks for free?
    I believe they install with some type of leach bag that has to be replaced every so often for that very reason.

    With inverter driven load matching air source, and probably soon the same for ground source, it seems this technology will have a hard time staying ahead enough to justify these issues...

    I don't think they have TXV's 60 feet down, definitely not going to have electronic valves.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Lexington South Carolina
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by can2man View Post
    Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?
    To the person that thinks all you have to do is buy two jugs of refrigerent. Think about this. We are not using pure refrigerents anymore. We are using blends and azeotropes. That is to say when you use say R410a, it is a combinationof 4 different gasses and they leak out aout different rates.

    The official recommendation is that "top off" is risky. Complete replacement of the refrigerent is recommended because these new gasses are NOT pure refrigerants. They are supposed to be weighed in.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denver/Boulder
    Posts
    2,332
    This is just more of the same. People talking with closed ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Manapat View Post
    I researched a company up north innovating in geo, burying refrigerant lines in the ground. It is particularly great if it touches or is bathed in water. Heat transfer can be very efficient, but there is a very big BUT!

    Standard water lines copper lines can corrode and / or develop pinhole leaks at 20 years, depends on quality of copper and what kind of water runs through them. That is why cities try and make city water slightly alkaline.

    Traditional hvac copper properly soldered (and it isn't 40% of the time, in my experience) generally does not deteriorate from the inside, often can be reused, but what happens when you run long copper suction, liquid line sets and bury them in an environment that is even slightly acidic? The lines may develop leaks from the outside going in.

    Wanna fix it? Wanna guarantee your work and repair developed leaks for free?

    There is a reason modern geo drillers and installers use polypropolene or similar stuff. The stuff has to work long term. Best thing to do with a line set is sink it in a large body of water if possible.
    Copper is entirely stable in most soils. It comes from the soil and is quite happy there. In the rare instance that the soil is found to have conditions that deplete (corrode) copper it can be protected by means of impressed electrical current. Basically corrosion depletes the copper of ions. If you prevent that from happening corrosion can't take place.

    My systems do have a warranty.

    modern? are you saying my methods are backwards? antiquated?

    Are you sure you know what you are talking about?



    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    I believe they install with some type of leach bag that has to be replaced every so often for that very reason.

    With inverter driven load matching air source, and probably soon the same for ground source, it seems this technology will have a hard time staying ahead enough to justify these issues...

    I don't think they have TXV's 60 feet down, definitely not going to have electronic valves.
    They are keeping it quiet about it but Earthlinked does have a unit running somewhere in France as I understand it. I'm not sure if it's a VFD. I'm thinking it's a more residential friendly variable speed compressor, but I'm guessing.

    The current metering setup maintains near zero superheat and subcooling figures in normal operation. how much control do you want?






    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Manapat View Post
    To the person that thinks all you have to do is buy two jugs of refrigerent. Think about this. We are not using pure refrigerents anymore. We are using blends and azeotropes. That is to say when you use say R410a, it is a combinationof 4 different gasses and they leak out aout different rates.

    The official recommendation is that "top off" is risky. Complete replacement of the refrigerent is recommended because these new gasses are NOT pure refrigerants. They are supposed to be weighed in.
    That would be me. Mr. Two Jugs.

    I was referring to the relative difference in installation cost. of course there's more to it than that. I didn't get my mechanical license in a box of crakerjacks. As to what you are referencing, I'm not sure.

    First, I don't recall saying that I use 410a. wait a minute. I guess I did, but that was intended more as theoretical. OK, Let's go with that.

    You said that that R-410a has four constituent parts. I don't get that. Even if you break down 410a to it's atomic elements you only get three. Carbon, Hydrogen and Fluorine. If you do it as most properly trained and educated techs would, you get R-32( difluoromethane or CH2F2) and R-125 (pentafluoroethane CHF2CF3) So that's two fairly stable compounds, not Four.

    Do you know what the glide on R-410a is? It's pretty damn small. About .1 degree Kelvin or .2 degree Fahrenheit at room temperature just off the top of my head. Frankly none of that makes a difference to me when the job gets done right. When my brazes are correct there is really no concern for me.

    By the way, I'm always hearing about acceptable leak rates on water source loops. What's up with that anyway?
    Last edited by darctangent; 06-02-2011 at 11:56 AM.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.


    Two pressures, four temperatures = SUCCESS!


    Boulder Heating Contractor


    For Consumers:

    For HVACR Professionals:


  10. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,732
    Good post. I do recall something about running an electrical charge through the lines...

    Quote Originally Posted by darctangent View Post

    By the way, I'm always hearing about acceptable leak rates on water source loops. What's up with that anyway?
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denver/Boulder
    Posts
    2,332
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Good post. I do recall something about running an electrical charge through the lines...

    LOL. We should talk sometime. I do respect your ability to keep up with many different aspects of the HVAC profession.

    That, and I've got all kinds of nutty ideas for HVAC.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.


    Two pressures, four temperatures = SUCCESS!


    Boulder Heating Contractor


    For Consumers:

    For HVACR Professionals:


  12. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    40

    Training

    I just started off in Geothermal and Solar recently. I too was a bit limited on my local resources. I ended up going to Dallas to work with a company for a couple of weeks to get my feet wet. It was fantastic experience and the volume of WF installs during those two weeks gave me great hands on.

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