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  1. #1

    Advice on Carrier Infinity System Needed

    I'm looking for advice on which Carrier Infinity AC and furnace to get. I'm located in Maryland just outside of Washington DC, with central air conditioning and forced hot air system. We need to replace the AC unit which is no longer working. Our gas furnace, 80,000 BTUs at 60%, works fine but is 25 years old, so it seems it would be worthwhile to replace that as well.

    A contractor recommended a 3 ton AC (24ANA136A31), and a 70,000 BTU 80% furnace (58CVA070-12). He said he could use the existing ducts but needs to run a leak test to see if he can use the refrigeration lines. He quoted a price of $ for the AC, $for the furnace, $ for a humidifier, and an additional $ if he needs to replace the refrigeration lines. With this package I'd get a $1,000 rebate from Carrier and a $1,500 tax credit. So the total cost would be $.

    He recommended against the Infinity 96 or ICS furnace because it would be an additional $ in price, plus another $ in duct work would be required to get the tax credit. He said this would save me only about $150/year on the gas bill and would not be worth it.

    Another option would be to get a heat pump instead of the AC and have a hybrid system. I'm not sure which model, he said something like Infinity 25HNA 17 SEER, and it would cost $ more. But, he said this would save me about $350/year on my gas bill and would be worth the additional cost. However, he said that this option requires that I get the 90,000 BTU furnace in order to qualify for the $1,500 tax credit. He said that he'd be willing to install the 70,000 BTU furnace which would match my house better, and fill out the paperwork so that I'd still qualify for the tax credit.

    My first question is should I get the AC or the heat pump? My concern is whether the quality of the heat will feel as nice as the heat coming from a gas furnace. Are people generally satisfied with the Infinity heat pumps? (Also, does anyone know which heat pump model he's talking about?)

    Second, if I get the heat pump, should I get the 70,000 or the 90,000 BTU furnace? He said it would be the same price for either one.

    Third, are his quotes reasonable? If he installs the 70,000 BTU furnace with the heat pump, should there be an additional discount?

    And fourth, should I even consider a geothermal heat pump?
    Last edited by beenthere; 10-21-2009 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Removed prices

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Big Sky Country
    Posts
    15
    "Quality of heat" sounds relative to your expectations, it should heat your home just fine and save some money in the process. Not many heat pumps where i live so im not an expert there.

    Sounds like no heat load calc was done, which would technically be the right place to start. Bigger is not better when comparing furnaces.

    I must be missing something on the tax credit b/c why would 90k count and 70k not? Either way, thought they had to be 95% to get the credit. By the way, more to choosing the 96 than payback, much better performing in terms of comfort.

    Your quotes will soon be deleted as they violate site rules, reasonable is relative also.

    Always consider geo, but that is a whole conversation in and of itself. Im a fan of it, though new to it.

    Edit: I think im reasonable, my wife may disagree.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    67,743
    I removed your prices. No prices allowed in post.
    Please read Site Rules Thank you.
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  4. #4
    Sorry about posting the prices. What I mean by "quality of heat" is, will the space feel cold and drafty with this particular heat pump much more so than with a gas furnace?

    I was confused about his claim that I need the larger furnace to qualify for the tax credit too. It seems that if the AC qualifies for the credit with the 70,000 BTU furnace, then the heat pump would also qualify for the credit with the same furnace. It may be that he read his info sheet wrong, or that I misunderstood him and he meant 90% instead of 90K BTU, or both. I'll call him back to clarify that.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cedar Grove, Wi-Sheboygan
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    1,582
    I'm guessing he meant that if you go HP you have to meet certain efficiency numbers to qualify for the Tax Credit and other rebates you may qualify for thru your local Utility Co. It sound like this guy didn't do a load calc if he's telling you to get 2 different size furnaces depending on which way you go as far as AC or HP??? How many quotes have you received thus far ? If this is your only quote I would keep looking and get atleast another 2 or 3 quotes on both furnace and AC and Furnace HP so your comparing apples to apples. If your upgrading from a (60%) which could have orginally been a 80% when new to a ICS from Carrier their 96% your going to save quite a bit in fuel 15% or more based on your homes insulation and air sealing values. bottom line get more quotes.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Big Sky Country
    Posts
    15
    My personal opinion is that you should not sense anything uncomfortable when your system is heating. The brand or model of the heat pump shouldn't matter. Duct design and professional installation will affect your sense of comfort more. I would have no worries there.
    Any heat pump experts know what we could expect for a delta T on heat pumps?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    67,743
    It may take you a while to get use to the cooler discharge air temp of a heat pump. If your home has its supplies blowing on you.

    Post model numbers of complete system. Indoor coil outdoor unit and furnace.
    And maybe Garyg, or Ryan can tell you if they qualify.
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Central New Jersey
    Posts
    253
    [QUOTE=tiptongrange;4810422]
    A contractor recommended a 3 ton AC (24ANA136A31), and a 70,000 BTU 80% furnace (58CVA070-12). He said he could use the existing ducts but needs to run a leak test to see if he can use the refrigeration lines. He quoted a price of $ for the AC, $for the furnace, $ for a humidifier, and an additional $ if he needs to replace the refrigeration lines. With this package I'd get a $1,000 rebate from Carrier and a $1,500 tax credit. So the total cost would be $.

    He recommended against the Infinity 96 or ICS furnace because it would be an additional $ in price, plus another $ in duct work would be required to get the tax credit. He said this would save me only about $150/year on the gas bill and would not be worth it.

    /QUOTE]

    I own the Infinity ICS (58MVC60) and Infinity 17 (24ANA736). I went through you analysis in the spring. My opinion is to swap out the Infinity 21 condenser, and replace it with the Infinity 17. You will likely never see a pay back on the savings of the higher SEER the Infinity 21 offers in your climate. Then substitute the furnace for the Infinity ICS. If it is true you will save $150 per year, then you should see a payback in 5-7 years. This arrangement will qualify for the tax credit.

    I don't understand why the Infinity ICS needs a the change in duct work to qualify for the tax credit. Perhaps one of the pros can explain this. I would also ask for a new lineset if it is not too difficult to replace. Finally get a 10 year parts and labor warranty from Carrier.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    WV
    Posts
    75
    I had a similar situation as you, A/C with gas furnace, which I recently replaced with a Carrier hybrid system. I did a lot of research on line and on this site, and settled on this system. I knew from the start that I wanted a hybrid system so I didn't look at going with the same setup that I had. I went with the Carrier ICS Infinity gas furnace(3- stage), Performance Series heat pump, matching tin plated inside coil, 4" filter media box, and the Infinity control thermostat. Even though the Performance HP is not an infinity model, it still communicates with the Infinity control for outside coil and air temp, and costs less than an Infinity HP. If you go with the Performance series HP, make sure you get the "H" model which has better heating hspf number than the A model.

    I've had experience with an older heat pump on our 2nd floor and I can tell you that this new HP blows it away. The other morning at 38 degrees outside temp, it was blowing warm air out of the registers. My climate is similar to yours so a HP will do great in your area.

    The Infinity control thermostat is the best thing about the entire setup. You can set the outdoor temp when it will switch from the HP to the gas furnace. I have mine set to lockout the HP at 25F and the Furnace at 35F In between, the furnace will kick in if the HP can't handle the heat load, and will be the only heat below 25.

    The blower will run at the lowest speed necessary to maintain comfort and reduce noise. I never hear my blower running or hear the outdoor HP for that matter. The system is super quiet. In the cooling mode, it will run the blower at low speed to reduce humidity to the setting you have it set at and prevent over cooling. My temp setting never varies from the set point. In my opinion, it's the best HVAC system out there. Just make sure they size it right.

  10. #10
    I talked to the contractor again today. The reason why there is an extra installation cost with the Infinity 96 or ICS, is because currently, the exhaust from the hot water heater and furnace share the same chimney. If I install the Infinity 80 furnace, then they'd continue to share the chimney. But with the 96 or ICS, a separate dual pipe would be installed for intake and exhaust to service the furnace, and the water heater would be orphaned. With this system, the Code requires that they line the chimney of an orphaned water heater--apparently they're concerned that the exhaust won't be hot enough to exit the chimney, condense, and fall back into it.

    He said that the extra cost of the high efficiency furnace plus the extra installation cost was not worth the fuel savings over the Infinity 80, especially if I go with a heat pump instead of AC. In this case, the Infinity Series heat pump would be required instead of the Performance Series to get the tax credit when paired with the 80% furnace.

    Also, he didn't tell me to get a different size furnace depending on whether I go with AC or heat pump. Rather, he said that the smaller unit meets the requirements to get a tax credit if I go with an AC, but a larger unit is needed to meet the requirements for a tax credit if I go with the heat pump. Then, he said since the smaller unit is a better match for my house, that if I go with the heat pump, if I wanted him to, he'd install the smaller furnace and fill out the paperwork so that I'd still get the tax credit.

    I'm getting a couple of other estimates next week, but as of now I'm leaning towards the Infinity heat pump with the smaller Infinity 80 furnace.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Derwood, Md
    Posts
    142
    Quote Originally Posted by tiptongrange View Post
    I talked to the contractor again today. The reason why there is an extra installation cost with the Infinity 96 or ICS, is because currently, the exhaust from the hot water heater and furnace share the same chimney. If I install the Infinity 80 furnace, then they'd continue to share the chimney. But with the 96 or ICS, a separate dual pipe would be installed for intake and exhaust to service the furnace, and the water heater would be orphaned. With this system, the Code requires that they line the chimney of an orphaned water heater--apparently they're concerned that the exhaust won't be hot enough to exit the chimney, condense, and fall back into it.

    He said that the extra cost of the high efficiency furnace plus the extra installation cost was not worth the fuel savings over the Infinity 80, especially if I go with a heat pump instead of AC. In this case, the Infinity Series heat pump would be required instead of the Performance Series to get the tax credit when paired with the 80% furnace.

    Also, he didn't tell me to get a different size furnace depending on whether I go with AC or heat pump. Rather, he said that the smaller unit meets the requirements to get a tax credit if I go with an AC, but a larger unit is needed to meet the requirements for a tax credit if I go with the heat pump. Then, he said since the smaller unit is a better match for my house, that if I go with the heat pump, if I wanted him to, he'd install the smaller furnace and fill out the paperwork so that I'd still get the tax credit.

    I'm getting a couple of other estimates next week, but as of now I'm leaning towards the Infinity heat pump with the smaller Infinity 80 furnace.
    I am in suburban Md and went through the same Analysis. Went with the 95%furnace because of a bad experience with a Heat Pump in my previous house, probably should have gone with the Heat pump and 80% furnace. My hot water heater is using the existing chimney and I recall double checking the contractors calcs.

    You will not get the payback in our climate from the higher end AC unit. Get the 17 instead of the 21.

    I have the Bryant Evolution System and used the contractor I have used for over 20 years and he has been rated well by Checkbook Magazine.

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