Thermostat or Furnace

[ualr_jmjones]

I recently had a company (Sears) install central AC in my home. They retrofit the coils to my existing furnace. They also installed a new thermostat.

The air works great, but the heat no longer comes on. I have looked at all the wires in the back of the thermostat and inside the furnace itself. According to the manual for the thermostat - E/W1 is supposed to be used for controlling Emer/Stage 1 heating. I have no wire on this lead. Could this be the cause of my furnace not kicking on? I am fairly clever when it comes to electronics, but I don't know how it could possibly turn on if there is no control wire for the furnace.

The wires that are hooked up are the
(R) Red -red wire (24 V for powering the thermostat)
(C) Common - white wire (actually it is hooked up to my furnace W post - I would think this is the control wire, but they are using it as a ground)
(Y1) blue wire - Compressor control wire
(G) green wire - fan control

There is not another wire in the wall. I feel that they hooked the air up and did not have enough wires to hook up both air and heat, and rather than run a new cable that has 5 wires - they figured "It will be another 2 months before he finds out. Hehehehe (sinister laugh).

Is there any way that the system could be connected properly using only 4 wires? From my calculations, I think that they would need a minimum of 5 to control my single stage heat and single stage air.

I have them coming out tomorrow and would like some ammo for them. If it is a problem with the furnace, it is my dime - if it is an issue with the installation, it is on Sear's dime.

Any help is appreciated.

[beenthere]

There are stats that can control both heat and cooling with only 4 wires. Some can do it with less.

Their mistake.

[ualr_jmjones]

I have never had any issue with my furnace. I believe it to be 7 years old (Carrier natural gas furnace), I have lived in the house for two years.

I am quite confident that this thermostat is not a fancy one that can do it with less wires.

I knew nothing about HVAC until I found this issue and their tech support wasn't very helpful, so I started digging around for something obvious - like a wire not connected properly, etc. When I found that all the wires were in their correct spaces, I started to trace them out. Every letter on the furnace mates up to a wire on the thermostat. The stat has other capabilities as it can be used on dual stage heating and cooling - so I expected there to be some empty terminals on it.

But, without the E/W1 terminal being connected to anything, and the manual clearly states that it is the "Emer / Stage 1 Heating" terminal - I saw no possibility of ever getting the furnace to kick on. Is that assumption correct.

Oh, and thanks for all the HVAC people out there that do a good job at what they do. When you find someone that doesn't it really pisses you off - so cheers to all that do a good job.

[beenthere]

They need to either use a different stat, or pull another wire bundle for it to work.

[4x4freak]

I would give them a chance to fix it. It may have just been an honest mistake. I've put wires where they didn't belong before myself.

[doctordarnell]

I recently had a company (Sears) install central AC in my home. They retrofit the coils to my existing furnace. They also installed a new thermostat.

The air works great, but the heat no longer comes on. I have looked at all the wires in the back of the thermostat and inside the furnace itself. According to the manual for the thermostat - E/W1 is supposed to be used for controlling Emer/Stage 1 heating. I have no wire on this lead. Could this be the cause of my furnace not kicking on? I am fairly clever when it comes to electronics, but I don't know how it could possibly turn on if there is no control wire for the furnace.

The wires that are hooked up are the
(R) Red -red wire (24 V for powering the thermostat)
(C) Common - white wire (actually it is hooked up to my furnace W post - I would think this is the control wire, but they are using it as a ground)
(Y1) blue wire - Compressor control wire
(G) green wire - fan control

There is not another wire in the wall. I feel that they hooked the air up and did not have enough wires to hook up both air and heat, and rather than run a new cable that has 5 wires - they figured "It will be another 2 months before he finds out. Hehehehe (sinister laugh).

Is there any way that the system could be connected properly using only 4 wires? From my calculations, I think that they would need a minimum of 5 to control my single stage heat and single stage air.

I have them coming out tomorrow and would like some ammo for them. If it is a problem with the furnace, it is my dime - if it is an issue with the installation, it is on Sear's dime.

Any help is appreciated.

old mercury type Heat pump stat may be 4 wire. but most likely they need to pull a new 8 wire to the stat or at least 5.New stats can just have 2 wires. if pulling a wire is a problem you can goolge 2 wire visonpro thermostat it will work fine.

[garya505]

Well, I'm not a pro, but I know W controls the furnace so I think it's unlikely to work with 4 wires if your tstat needs a a common. If you don't need the common on your stat I'll take a guess that they will probably just move the white wire from C to W on the tstat.

If pulling another wire is going to cost you, I'd recommend looking at the Honeywell VisonPro IAQ thermostat instead. I think it can run on 3 wires (though I'm not sure just how they manage that).

Oh, and if they make the furnace work, I'd check it to make sure the AC still works before they leave.

[woodsman]

[ATTACH]50922[/ATTACH

[CommtechinVA]

Well, I'm not a pro, but I know W controls the furnace so I think it's unlikely to work with 4 wires if your tstat needs a a common. If you don't need the common on your stat I'll take a guess that they will probably just move the white wire from C to W on the tstat.

If pulling another wire is going to cost you, I'd recommend looking at the Honeywell VisonPro IAQ thermostat instead. I think it can run on 3 wires (though I'm not sure just how they manage that).

Oh, and if they make the furnace work, I'd check it to make sure the AC still works before they leave.

The IAQ uses a control board at the indoor unit, where all wired are terminated for the indoor and outdoor units. The three wires to the stat are basically communication wires. The stat sends information to the IAQ board, and the board decides what to do with the unit.

[garya505]

The IAQ uses a control board at the indoor unit, where all wired are terminated for the indoor and outdoor units. The three wires to the stat are basically communication wires. The stat sends information to the IAQ board, and the board decides what to do with the unit.

I figured it was something like that. The IAQ was my second choice, and would have been my first choice if I couldn't pull new wire. This might be the best solution in this case, and it's a nice thermostat anyway.

[Mr Chesapeake]

Ha ha ha! You called Sears...

[ualr_jmjones]

UPDATE

I just got off the phone with the service guy that is on his way. He agrees that there really should be a wire coming out of the E/W1 on the stat. BUT, he says he is going to move the white wire from (C) on the stat to the (E/W1) terminal. His logic is that my stat has batteries and therefor does not need the Common.

My question is....
Is this a half ass solution? Does this mean that my stat will run solely on batteries? When the common is connected, is it running off of the power from the furnace (DC) that is powered by my house (AC), thus only running off of batteries when the power is out? If my batteries go dead, does that mean I have no heat or air? When I replace my batteries, do I lose all my programming?

Ultimately, should I insist that another wire is run, so I can have 5 wires instead of 4 and power the stat via the house wiring and not the batteries? He will be here in two hours (supposedly)

Ha ha ha! You called Sears...

Hindsight being 20/20 - probably wouldn't do it again, but they had no interest no payments for a year, and the unit has a 10 year warranty. I am hoping that Sears can make it though this economy. I was leary of some of the local shops that came out to give an estimate as I wasn't sure they would be around to do any warranty repairs.

Now, had I known that this warranty == headaches - I would have gone with someone else.

Thank you for suggesting the option of changing out the stat and board, but I doubt they will do this since it is a warranty repair, but I will suggest it to the repairman.

[garya505]

UPDATE

I just got off the phone with the service guy that is on his way. He agrees that there really should be a wire coming out of the E/W1 on the stat. BUT, he says he is going to move the white wire from (C) on the stat to the (E/W1) terminal. His logic is that my stat has batteries and therefor does not need the Common.

My question is....
Is this a half ass solution? Does this mean that my stat will run solely on batteries? When the common is connected, is it running off of the power from the furnace (DC) that is powered by my house (AC), thus only running off of batteries when the power is out? If my batteries go dead, does that mean I have no heat or air? When I replace my batteries, do I lose all my programming?

Ultimately, should I insist that another wire is run, so I can have 5 wires instead of 4 and power the stat via the house wiring and not the batteries? He will be here in two hours (supposedly)


Hindsight being 20/20 - probably wouldn't do it again, but they had no interest no payments for a year, and the unit has a 10 year warranty. I am hoping that Sears can make it though this economy. I was leary of some of the local shops that came out to give an estimate as I wasn't sure they would be around to do any warranty repairs.

Now, had I known that this warranty == headaches - I would have gone with someone else.

Thank you for suggesting the option of changing out the stat and board, but I doubt they will do this since it is a warranty repair, but I will suggest it to the repairman.

What thermostat do you have? If it does "power stealing" to conserve battery life, then yes, your stat will be running on batts and they will go dead much sooner. Of course, with C-stat wired to W-furn, the power stealing may not have worked anyway. BTW, my stat does not require C to work propoerly, but needs it for power stealing to conserve battery life and enable the continuous backlight.

I suggest you read your contract to see if upgrading your wiring was part of the deal, but I doubt it. I mean, if you were in the business, would you include home wiring upgrades as part of the deal, not knowing what the wiring upgrade would cost to do? I wouldn't. On the other hand, they should have told you up front that they needed to check your wiring to see if it will support the installtion, and if it didn't, tell you what it would cost to upgrade it. If it turns out you need new wire, and they never talked to you about that, I think it would be reasonable to negotiate some sort of deal with Sears to remedy the situation. I mean really, if you needed new wiring they should have told you that BEFORE you accepted the contract.

I really doubt if they would throw in a new programmable stat as part of the deal. Personally (if it was me doing it), if the wiring change doesn't work, and they don't offer to do anything else, I would get a new stat that will run on 4 wires or less. There are other advantages to a stat like the VisionPro IAQ. For example, you can program it to circulate your air when heat/cool are not required, which can help eliminate hot and cold spots in your house. You could also run a humidifier from it.

Oh, and I would negotiate with Sears. The repair guy is probably just a contractor with little authority to give you anything much.

[ualr_jmjones]

The stat is a Braeburn Premier Series 5200.

The manual says that it is not required for battery only operation. I would assume that it could be a "power-stealing" type, or it can run without it.

How long do these batteries typically last in a thermostat? Can lithiums be used in it? I have had good luck with the Energizer Lithiums, they last forever in other devices around the house.

If they last around a year, then it really isn't an issue for me running it off of them. If I am going to have to replace the batteries every 3 months, then it is an issue for me.

The quote they gave me was for the complete end to end installation, including wiring if needed. Since they had 4 wires, they decided they didn't need the extra wires - Is that decision one that they should make or should I make that call? They were prepared to run new wires during the original install.

[garya505]

The stat is a Braeburn Premier Series 5200.

The manual says that it is not required for battery only operation. I would assume that it could be a "power-stealing" type, or it can run without it.

How long do these batteries typically last in a thermostat? Can lithiums be used in it? I have had good luck with the Energizer Lithiums, they last forever in other devices around the house.

If they last around a year, then it really isn't an issue for me running it off of them. If I am going to have to replace the batteries every 3 months, then it is an issue for me.

The quote they gave me was for the complete end to end installation, including wiring if needed. Since they had 4 wires, they decided they didn't need the extra wires - Is that decision one that they should make or should I make that call? They were prepared to run new wires during the original install.

The Bareburn 5200 manual states "Transformer Common connection not required for battery-only operation of thermostat", but the manual also describes the batteries as "back-up". Also, it states, "This thermostat requires two (2) properly installed “AA” Alkaline batteries to maintain the system clock and to provide power for the thermostat if 24 volt AC power is not connected to the terminal block". This means the batteries ARE proeviding power when no AC is connected.

Note also this statement in troubleshooting, "Symptom: Thermostat display is blank.
Potential Solution: It is possible that AC power is not present at the thermostat and the batteries are drained. Check fuse, circuit breaker and thermostat wiring as appropriate to verify AC power is available. Replace batteries before reprogramming thermostat. (see section 6). If AC power is present, call a professional service technician to verify thermostat and system performance."

All this strongly implies that the stat runs on AC power to conserve battery life, and having no AC power to the stat WILL drain the batteries much faster. The batteries are also clearly stated "for back-up".

If the backlight is used a lot, or is on continuously, the batteries would surely die sooner. I see this stat has NVRAM, so the setting will not be lost when the batteries go dead.

Again, if this was me - if the contract included thermostat wiring, and my stat manual read like this one (I.E. the batteries will go dead sooner without the C connection), then I would ask them to put in the extra wire. You'd be surprized what you can get sometimes with a clear and concise argument.

[ualr_jmjones]

I am calling them now, I guess I should ask them if they recommend connecting to the 24 v common when it is available... And, if I am connected with the 24 v common could I expect the batteries to last longer. Also, if there stat is considered a "power stealing" type thermostat.

Bear in mind that I am only doing all of this research because I have time to spare since he is sooooo late.

[ualr_jmjones]

I just got off the phone with Braeburn and he says that they should get about 2 years on the batteries, but if the batteries go completely dead, I lose all my programming. This is not the case if you have the common connected. He suggested that "if you have a system that has a common, then you should definitely use it"

He says that it will help the batteries last longer.

More than likely, I will change the batteries once a year (or at least test them) even with the 24 V power running the stat.

He didn't know whether it would be considered power-stealing since it runs solely on the 24 V when it is available. It only uses the batteries in the event of a power outage to keep the settings and the clock set.

I am going to ask if it is possible to get another wire run and then go from there. Hopefully the guy will be cool since he made me wait on him all day and I have been more than OK with it (at least on the phone)

[garya505]

I am calling them now, I guess I should ask them if they recommend connecting to the 24 v common when it is available... And, if I am connected with the 24 v common could I expect the batteries to last longer. Also, if there stat is considered a "power stealing" type thermostat.

Bear in mind that I am only doing all of this research because I have time to spare since he is sooooo late.

The wiring diagram on page 16 (the last page) of the installation manual shows "Transformer Common (required)". While this diagram is for a 2 stage heat/cool system, it's the only wiring diagram in the manual, and I would think the 2 stage connections would just be omitted for single-stage system.

Maybe Braeburn can supply you with a wiring diagram for a single-stage system.

[ualr_jmjones]

He just left and because my basement is finished and he has a busy day and he was running late; he wouldn't be able to do it for me today. As a compromise we used the fan control wire (I don't use this feature, I use ceiling fans if it is stuffy) as a common.

I am not reliant on the batteries, and I have heat and air. He moved the white wire from C to W1 and blammo - furnace works. He said that he was training a new guy and he assumed that he hooked the wires up right.

I could call Sears and tell them that I want a wire with 8 wires ran so I can get my fan control back; but I think I would rather shoot myself in the foot.

He did teach me a trick for getting the new wire from the wall by my stat to the furnace. He said block off all the other returns, tie a grocery sack to some fishing line and turn the Air on and let the return suck the bag down to the furnace. He emphasized that you should leave the filter in to catch the bag - then you have a handy dandy pull string to attach to your wire. I will do that some weekend in the future.

Thanks everyone for your help on this issue.

He did mention that Sears had called him and told him to "hold off" on coming out - I don't know what all that is about.