Amana or York?

[snamin]

Hi
I'm debating between AMV90704CX ($ CAD including install), Amana Distinctions GMV950704CX ($ CAD including install) and York TM9V 60k BTU ($ CAD including install and I'm yet to get the exact model id).

The main features I'm looking for:
- reliability
- noise
- the right size

Both Amana's were offered by a major company in the Toronto area. The York was offered by another reputable contractor in the area, so this is for me an even score (although I tend more to the York contractor because it seems to me they should be more qualified because the unit is more complex, I may be wrong though). What bothers me the most is that the 2 contractors (and another 2 I have spoken with) did not use any Manual J or whatever formula for calculating the right size. All of them were just interested in the size of the house (2000 square feet) and the size of the old furnace (outgoing 57k BTU). The Amana guy was dead positive that I need 70k BTU no more no less and the York guy first offered me 80k BTU with TM9X model, but when I expressed my concern about over sizing, the next model TM9V, he offered with 60k BTU. His explanation – TM9X is a one stage furnace and that’s why I need 80k BTU and TM9V is a two stage furnace and that’s why 60k BTU should be enough. Is this a logical explanation?
Can somebody tell me how the 2 Amana’s and the TM9V compare with regards to noise and reliability? Also I’m on a very tight budget, so the Amana Distinction is the winner in this case, but I wouldn’t want to compromise on the feature I’ve stated. I would be happy to go with it if it’s reliable and quiet . I was told the main difference between the AMV90704CX and GMV950704CX is the stainless steel heat exchanger and its lifetime replacement warranty. I’m less concerned about the lifetime warranty but how important is the stainless steel heat exchanger?

Thanks in advance for any input.

[Mr Chesapeake]

Thou art including prices and that is a no no here.

[amd]

The Amana guy was dead positive that I need 70k BTU no more no less and the York guy first offered me 80k BTU with TM9X model, but when I expressed my concern about over sizing, the next model TM9V, he offered with 60k BTU. His explanation – TM9X is a one stage furnace and that’s why I need 80k BTU and TM9V is a two stage furnace and that’s why 60k BTU should be enough. Is this a logical explanation?

Do not even consider that contractor. Run!

Staging is for comfort; a 60k btu unit at 95% efficiency will put out 57k BTUs whether it's single stage, modulating, or 2-stage.

With the current government rebates available, a 2-stage unit with an ecm blower can cost less than a singe stage model.

If 57k BTU output was sufficient, don't get anything larger. Amana/Goodman doesn't offer anything between 45k and 70k.

A 80k unit is definitely too large for a 2000 sq ft house in Toronto if reasonable well insulated. (Built 1980 or later)

If you get a 2-stage furnace, insist on using a 2-stage thermostat.

[beenthere]

York guy is full of crap.

[snamin]

Thou art including prices and that is a no no here.

Thanks, that makes sense. I see the prices were removed and I'm happy that I already got some important info from this forum. I just thought price is an important factor in this decision. After all not everybody can ride a Mercedes

[snamin]

Do not even consider that contractor. Run!

You mean both of them? The problem with the big companies (judging by my experience) is that you talk with the sales people and not the actual installer. So I give them a benefit of a doubt hoping the actual installer will be trained and certified. On the other hand they give you that known talk about brand name standing behind the warranty for years and I have to say they’ve convinced me . Another private company contractor I spoke with offered me a Goodman 70k BTU at first. But then again I asked about over sizing and told him that the house was built in 1987 and the insulation in the attic is R32 (that’s all I know about insulation in my house ) and I recently replaced the windows with the new eco energy ones. Then he jumped to Goodman 45k right away. All that on the phone without actually being in my house and when we set a time for an in house estimate he called me 2 minutes before the time and didn’t show up.
I wouldn’t say 57k was enough. The master bedroom was pretty cold, but it is above the garage and it was with the old windows, so it’s hard to judge. Will 45k BTU Goodman be enough with the new windows? I can run from those contractors of course. The problem how to find the good private contractors that are certified, know what they do and stand behind their work. I was trying to check homestars.com rating but I’m not sure how much to believe it. I have no other ways to look for contractors but internet (I’m not the yellowpages generation )

[beenthere]

The room above the garage being cold is not an indication of an under sized furnace, or over sized.

Its typical of those rooms. to b colder n the winter, and hotter in the summer.

Any company that sizes and prices over the phone by sq ft is not a company you want.

Only way it can be priced. Is to see the set up.

[snamin]

York guy is full of crap.

beenthere,
from a few replies of yours on this forum I got the impression that you favour York better. The York guy said they only deal with York because it's a better product. Again, I might give him a benefit of the doubt for a sloppy estimate and hope that the installer will do a good job. How reliable is York in your experience? Will you be in favour of York in my case too?

Thanks

[beenthere]

I would recomend the York.

But not that contractor, after him giving you a BS line the way he did.

[amd]

If your furnace runs continuously but can't maintain the setpoint when it's -20C (toronto design) outside, it's undersized.

If not, uneven temps can be attributed to undersized ducts to certain rooms; in some cases balancing with dampers can solve the problem.

Oversizing can also cause uneven/poor distribution if the cycles are very short.

I wouldn't stick a 45k input furnace into a 2000 sq ft house without getting a full load calculation done. Replacing existing double pane windows may not make a significant difference; upgrading the attic insulation to R50 and draft proofing is a smart move though.

A 60k york should do fine given the size of your existing unit.

[snamin]

If your furnace runs continuously but can't maintain the setpoint when it's -20C (toronto design) outside, it's undersized.

If not, uneven temps can be attributed to undersized ducts to certain rooms; in some cases balancing with dampers can solve the problem.

Oversizing can also cause uneven/poor distribution if the cycles are very short.

I wouldn't stick a 45k input furnace into a 2000 sq ft house without getting a full load calculation done. Replacing existing double pane windows may not make a significant difference; upgrading the attic insulation to R50 and draft proofing is a smart move though.

A 60k york should do fine given the size of your existing unit.

If I remember last winter the blower was almost constantly on. It was like 3 minutes on then about 30 seconds off and then again 3 minutes on 30 seconds off. Is that what is called the cycle? By the way 2000 sq ft is the size without the basement.

Thanks

[amd]

If I remember last winter the blower was almost constantly on. It was like 3 minutes on then about 30 seconds off and then again 3 minutes on 30 seconds off.

That's not normal.

Cycling = starting up and shut down to maintain the setpoint.

Each operating cycle should last at least several minutes.

[snamin]

Oversizing can also cause uneven/poor distribution if the cycles are very short.

Can't I solve this by closing or partially closing registers in the living room where the thermostat is installed?

By the way, the Amana guy said that the old (non-digital round type) thermostat is okay and I don't need to replace it. I'm just wondering how the 2 stage Amana furnace will know which stage to use if the thermostat doesn't tell it. The York guy was positive that I need a new thermostat.

[beenthere]

Beware of contractors that don't use 2 stage stats on 2 stage furnaces that can take advantage of a 2 stage stat.

[snamin]

Beware of contractors that don't use 2 stage stats on 2 stage furnaces that can take advantage of a 2 stage stat.

Any particular reason why? I double checked with the Amana guy. He said the decision which stage to use is made by the control board inside the furnace. All the control board needs to get from the thermostat is the temperature on the main floor.

[beenthere]

The thermostat doesn't tell the board what the temp in the house is. It simply tells teh furnace to run or not, and in the case of a 2 stgae thermostat, what stage to run in.

The idea of 2 stage is long run times to improve comfort.
By using the board. You lose a lot of that long run time. It just uses a timer. May or may not have some logic on that board. that might kick second stage in faster because it ran for X minutes last time.

Using a 2 thermostat. The furnace won't go to second stage unless needed.


Often times, with a single stage stat, when it gets a little colder out. The furnace goes into second stage for ½ a minute or so, at the end of the cycle needlessly. Because the timer timed it on.

[seatonheating]

The thermostat doesn't tell the board what the temp in the house is. It simply tells teh furnace to run or not, and in the case of a 2 stgae thermostat, what stage to run in.

The idea of 2 stage is long run times to improve comfort.
By using the board. You lose a lot of that long run time. It just uses a timer. May or may not have some logic on that board. that might kick second stage in faster because it ran for X minutes last time.

Using a 2 thermostat. The furnace won't go to second stage unless needed.


Often times, with a single stage stat, when it gets a little colder out. The furnace goes into second stage for ½ a minute or so, at the end of the cycle needlessly. Because the timer timed it on.

Hey Been,

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that I am. I believe Goodman/Amana 2 stage furnaces(which they all are now) have to run off of a single stage thermostat. They are designed this way with only a W terminal, no W2. This is performed via a dipswitch in the furnace which is field selectable. I believe the internal board does have some decent logic to it, it isn't just a timer.

[beenthere]

Depends which model.
The lower end models can't use one. The higher end can I think.

I forgot about that though.

[amd]

Can't I solve this by closing or partially closing registers in the living room where the thermostat is installed?

Doing so will just make the living room colder than other areas; the furnace will simply run more and overheat the rest of the house.

By the way, the Amana guy said that the old (non-digital round type) thermostat is okay and I don't need to replace it. I'm just wondering how the 2 stage Amana furnace will know which stage to use if the thermostat doesn't tell it. The York guy was positive that I need a new thermostat.

See beenthere's post.

.................................................. ..............
The AMH just uses a timer for staging and should be avoided - get the AMV.

[snamin]

Thanks very much to all of you.
I've decided to drop Amana. Another guy came in. They sell Bryant, Rheem and Trane. He said Amana uses 4 ton blower (I hope I got that correctly) and with my ducts, which by his opinion are small, it will cause a lot of noise. That may or may not be true but I'm at the point that I need to decide (or I will be chosing for the whole winter ). So Amana is out. I'm still waiting for another York contractor to come in a few days. Over the phone, he suggested the modulating model. Other contractors expressed opinion that modulating will not work with small ducts because they need near to perfect return air flow.