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Thread: Guess what?

  1. #27
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    Damn, finally a serious discussion. I wish I could bounce some ideas off you but I am tiling my bathroom right now so I can not play. Hope to get back later.

    Ahhh bathroom remodeling.....better you than me..lol

    I should be online tomorrow night. Talk to you then


    damn.......................heh heh couldn't resist...................

  2. #28
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    Its odd that someone who makes aliving in the service industry would state that whats written about it is a lie.

  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmanko View Post
    Its odd that someone who makes aliving in the service industry would state that whats written about it is a lie.
    Not odd at all, if you think about. Let me ask you this, is it better, for the country as a whole, to service Japanese made a/c units or domestic made a/c units? Can America rely on service sector jobs alone? If so, how healthy is that for our nation?
    Why not discuss these topics instead of the usual "search for hypocrisy" posts?
    "Excellence is the gradual result of always striving to do better"
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  4. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmanko View Post
    Do you own a business. is your decision to hire or fire directly related to what the government does or is it related to the amount of work you have
    I don't own the business but I do decide whether to hire more personel in my department. I do make my decisions based on the stability of the Government in the future. Recently I have been making due with the staff we have and just working more overtime when it is necessary.
    The change in the COBRA rules has saddled employers with another 9 months of recurring expense if you hire and then have to layoff. This is really a great way for the "Stupids" to encourage more employers to hire.

  5. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by whec720 View Post
    Dang, printer, we are on the same page again. We sure need our manufacturing base back. The question is, how do we go about it? The US is trapped in debt owed to China, Japan and others.
    A dip in our standard of living won't be enough to climb out of this debt.
    The US Government does not want more manufacturing jobs that might generate more pollution. They want green jobs like being a "Whale Saver" or "Protecting the Spotted Owl". They are sure that they can borrow the money from the rest of the World to support these "Jobs".

  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by whec720 View Post
    Not odd at all, if you think about. Let me ask you this, is it better, for the country as a whole, to service Japanese made a/c units or domestic made a/c units? Can America rely on service sector jobs alone? If so, how healthy is that for our nation?
    Why not discuss these topics instead of the usual "search for hypocrisy" posts?
    In todays world, it matters little where something is made. As long as the trade laws between countries are fair and no value added pricing is envolved , I don't see where something came from as that important

  7. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRINJAX View Post
    I don't own the business but I do decide whether to hire more personel in my department. I do make my decisions based on the stability of the Government in the future. Recently I have been making due with the staff we have and just working more overtime when it is necessary.
    The change in the COBRA rules has saddled employers with another 9 months of recurring expense if you hire and then have to layoff. This is really a great way for the "Stupids" to encourage more employers to hire.
    so when you say recently, does that mean everyone of your hires came from Bush's tenure?

  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRINJAX View Post
    The US Government does not want more manufacturing jobs that might generate more pollution. They want green jobs like being a "Whale Saver" or "Protecting the Spotted Owl". They are sure that they can borrow the money from the rest of the World to support these "Jobs".
    They sure do not want more dirty jobs. I doubt they seriously believe everybody can be Whale and Owl caretakers but I doubt they really know what kind of jobs they want, other than Green Jobs. Maybe electronics jobs. Nice clean electronics. Shame the process uses a lot of nasty chemicals.

    Then maybe software, can’t get much greener than that. Come to think about it a few years ago the big thing was the wired technology. The new economy. Ideas were worth money we would send all the yucky jobs to the third world. We would buy their cheap goods and we would all be managers shuffling paper, virtual paper that is. I have come to the conclusion politicians are not much smarter than anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by acmanko View Post
    In todays world, it matters little where something is made. As long as the trade laws between countries are fair and no value added pricing is envolved , I don't see where something came from as that important
    In today’s world it does not matter where things are made, we can ship it anywhere and people will make money. The question is who is making the money? Lets take a stuffed animal or a shirt for example. They are best suited being made in a low wage environment so we can buy them cheap at Walmart.

    We all need shirts, right? So rather than have a domestic garment industry we buy from another country and then they will buy something we make. Which is good in theory but when you think about what the person making a few bucks a day can afford then you start seeing money moving more in one direction than the other.

    Now don’t get me wrong. I am a do-gooder and I realize that these other people need jobs also and at some point in time their economies will progress to the point where they can buy our goods. But the thing that makes this happen is transferring wealth from our countries to theirs. Not really a fast process as they are not getting paid much.

    So where is the money going to? Must be the business owners, Nike or the like. A fortune 500 company. That is a good thing. They have thousands of employees in the U.S. making a good buck. People’s pension funds can have a piece of Nike in them for when they retire. So it is kind of a mixed bag. Some good jobs, they must be paying some taxes to the government (I hope) shareholders get a place to grow their money, and some poor soul somewhere has a job that keeps them going for another day or two.

  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by whec720 View Post
    Not odd at all, if you think about. Let me ask you this, is it better, for the country as a whole, to service Japanese made a/c units or domestic made a/c units? Can America rely on service sector jobs alone? If so, how healthy is that for our nation?
    Why not discuss these topics instead of the usual "search for hypocrisy" posts?
    The service jobs only transfer wealth. Might as well be working in a Government job as far as growing the economy is concerned (Easy for me to say this as I am doing some controls work for a hospital which gets its funding from the government).

    Now before anyone gets pissed at me about socialized medicine, if you think about the same job in the U.S. for a private hospital it has exactly the same effect on the economy. Sure the guy in the position gets paid and people get well (something that needs to get done), but in one case the money comes from working people, to a middle man, Government or Insurance company, then into the Tech’s pocket.

    But the Tech did not produce anything, just provided a service. Where did that money come from? How about from an auto mechanic. The mechanic paid his taxes (Canada) or paid his insurance company (U.S.) and the money found its way into the Tech’s pocket. But since the mechanic provides a service also he is not really producing anything, we still need his services mind you, so he gets his money from someone else and transfers it on.

    So you have all these service industry people, including government worker, lawyers, teachers, who just transfer money from one person to the other. Well that money must have come from somewhere originally.

    It did. Someone pulled it out of the ground and refined it, cut down a tree and made wood or paper, grew vegetables or raised livestock and sold it for more (hopefully) than they invested to produce the item. Someone has to take a raw product and then transform it in a way so another person will pay more for that product. Manufactured goods create wealth. The rest of us just pass that wealth around. The less manufacturing we have the more we are just living on what we built yesterday.

  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    The service jobs only transfer wealth. Might as well be working in a Government job as far as growing the economy is concerned (Easy for me to say this as I am doing some controls work for a hospital which gets its funding from the government).

    Now before anyone gets pissed at me about socialized medicine, if you think about the same job in the U.S. for a private hospital it has exactly the same effect on the economy. Sure the guy in the position gets paid and people get well (something that needs to get done), but in one case the money comes from working people, to a middle man, Government or Insurance company, then into the Tech’s pocket.

    But the Tech did not produce anything, just provided a service. Where did that money come from? How about from an auto mechanic. The mechanic paid his taxes (Canada) or paid his insurance company (U.S.) and the money found its way into the Tech’s pocket. But since the mechanic provides a service also he is not really producing anything, we still need his services mind you, so he gets his money from someone else and transfers it on.

    So you have all these service industry people, including government worker, lawyers, teachers, who just transfer money from one person to the other. Well that money must have come from somewhere originally.

    It did. Someone pulled it out of the ground and refined it, cut down a tree and made wood or paper, grew vegetables or raised livestock and sold it for more (hopefully) than they invested to produce the item. Someone has to take a raw product and then transform it in a way so another person will pay more for that product. Manufactured goods create wealth. The rest of us just pass that wealth around. The less manufacturing we have the more we are just living on what we built yesterday.
    The points that you made are valid and I have long thought about what the end game is for a Service sector only economy. Since it produces little of its own goods and relies on everyone else for them, it is highly subject to economic blackmail.

    This also has an effect on the Unions when you move from manufacturing where they maybe can be competitive to service sector jobs, where they are not and can only survive with Government intervention.

  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by whec720 View Post
    Not Clinton, however he did expand it and further helped it along. What is "it"?

    NAFTA

    You can thank Bush Sr and a Democrat controlled Congress, at that time, for that. IMO, NAFTA killed any chance of the USA to ever gain back some of it's past manufacturing dominance.

    And yep, that is coming from a conservative.
    keep going back in time- Canada US Free Trade deal that Regean and Mulroney got the wheels rolling on

    Right after it was signed I went down to the states to a BEst Buy and bought a 286 computer. I had to pay duty on it because it was "Made in China" - this was lime 1989 or 90, senior must have signed that one.

    Canada US Free Trade morphed into NAFTA. We were screwed until Mexicans earn a decent wage.

    In 2006 I went up to tampa to furnish four condos. 8 bedrooms, 4 kitchens, 8 bathrooms, four dining rooms, four living rooms, 4 laundries - all the appliances, furniture and some light fixtures. We bought "name brands"

    Filled up a 40 foot container and almost a 20 foot container. When the stuff arrived here and I unloaded it, nothing said "Made in the USA" on the boxes

    So I guess I put 40 something thousand into the FLorida economy, mainly for warehouse fees and retail profit. Indirectly I paid some long shoremans wages up there I suppose.

    I wonder how much of my coin actually stayed in the US and how much went overseas? - probably half

    I bought the stuff at a florida furniture chain, and then at Lowes and Home Depot. Some of the name brand appliances(washers and dryers) at least had a Made in Canada on the boxes, but the majority of the stuff turned out to be Asian origin.

    Business likes free trade and outsourcing, they can keep 'prices down' and profits up. People like the low prices it gives them, but that costs them jobs.

    The "American Dream" allows a working stiff to work hard, prosper and get ahead. But the system seems to need a class of people who work hard for low pay. That used to be european immigrants right off the boat, hardest working people are always those right of the boat, they want a better life for their kids than what they had. Their kids remember that, but by the time you get to the grandchildren they seem to forget.

    I think you got wetbacks and outsourcing doing all the work that the grandchildren will not do
    Last edited by Carnak; 09-09-2009 at 09:57 AM.
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  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnak View Post
    keep going back in time- Canada US Free Trade deal that Regean and Mulroney got the wheels rolling on

    Right after it was signed I went down to the states to a BEst Buy and bought a 286 computer. I had to pay duty on it because it was "Made in China" - this was lime 1989 or 90, senior must have signed that one.

    Canada US Free Trade morphed into NAFTA. We were screwed until Mexicans earn a decent wage.

    In 2006 I went up to tampa to furnish four condos. 8 bedrooms, 4 kitchens, 8 bathrooms, four dining rooms, four living rooms, 4 laundries - all the appliances, furniture and some light fixtures. We bought "name brands"

    Filled up a 40 foot container and almost a 20 foot container. When the stuff arrived here and I unloaded it, nothing said "Made in the USA" on the boxes

    So I guess I put 40 something thousand into the FLorida economy, mainly for warehouse fees and retail profit. Indirectly I paid some long shoremans wages up there I suppose.

    I wonder how much of my coin actually stayed in the US and how much went overseas? - probably half

    I bought the stuff at a florida furniture chain, and then at Lowes and Home Depot. Some of the name brand appliances(washers and dryers) at least had a Made in Canada on the boxes, but the majority of the stuff turned out to be Asian origin.

    Business likes free trade and outsourcing, they can keep 'prices down' and profits up. People like the low prices it gives them, but that costs them jobs.

    The "American Dream" allows a working stiff to work hard, prosper and get ahead. But the system seems to need a class of people who work hard for low pay. That used to be european immigrants right off the boat, hardest working people are always those right of the boat, they want a better life for their kids than what they had. Their kids remember that, but by the time you get to the grandchildren they seem to forget.

    I think you got wetbacks and outsourcing doing all the work that the grandchildren will not do
    Good points, Carnak, but you are leaving some things out. In December of 93, then leaders of the three nations involved, Mexico, Canada, and the United States finalized the NAFTA agreement. Those leaders were Salinas, Creitien, and Clinton. Creitien and Clinton were from politically more liberal political parties, yet they signed on. Infact, Creitien could of backed out of the deal entirely. He already had the free trade pact in affect from Reagan and Mulroney. He could of kept Mexico, for at least his country, out of the loop.
    NAFTA then went into affect January 1, 1994. So, as you can see, there is plenty of blame to be spread around in both Canada and the US, as to the liberal and conservative politics of each nation.
    "Excellence is the gradual result of always striving to do better"
    -Pat Riley

  13. #39
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    lets see, my grandmother got off the boat from Scicily around 1915. I believe you are confused

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