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Thread: Chiller Brands

  1. #40
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    Jun 2009
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    Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by klove View Post
    There are pros and cons to both high and low pressure centrifugals. I personally like both. This particular topic concerning low pressure and lack of all need for oil changes has been a bone of contention for quite some time, however, so I think that I'll briefly hijack this thread and voice an opinion.

    Do I believe that oil needs to be changed every year in LP's? No. But I have seen oil drawn for analysis that you couldn't see through in a glass container, when it started out light honey gold to clear, and the report came back that the oil was fine - keep on runnin' the thing. I've seen it on York's, Trane's, Carrier's, etc.

    No matter how tight a machine is kept, there will be air - and therefore moisture - ingress into the machine, if from nothing else, changing the oil filter. This, coupled with the natural breakdown of mineral oil from heat, doesn't make for a long life for the oil lubricated parts and pieces of the machine. I use analysis, coupled with visual inspection, machine history, and sometimes I even throw experience and plain old gut feeling in there - but NOBODY will ever succeed in convincing me that you can run the same oil in ANY machine for 8 + years and it's still going to be as good as new.

    Synthetic oil in HP machines will definitely go a little longer, but contrary to what popular opinion is by one particular manufacturer, nothing lasts forever. I've always wondered how many machines die a premature death due to this practice. I personally know of chillers that have the same oil in them 15 years after commissioning (other than what was added to make up for filter change and sample losses). The stuff looked like molasses in the sample bottle. I'm sorry, folks, I just don't buy it..................
    I agree with that a lot. I have a few machines where just visual inspection of the oil would make me want to change it, but the oil analysis comes back clean. Tranes contention is that a trend of wear analysis is lost as soon as you change the oil. Makes you wonder just what is in the oil to cause the color change that they obviously don't test for. I've often wanted to send it to another lab just to see if their results were the same as the Trane lab. At Trane, there was always a CYA attitude; that is: if you had a good analysis and had made the recommendation to the customer that it would be a good idea to change it anyway, but they signed off on it...we were covered in the event of a catastrophic failure, which then became a prime sales opportunity. Sad but true.
    Low Pressure Forever!

    If you know heavy metal, you can work anywhere-Dave Andreson

    Anchors Aweigh my boys, Anchors Aweigh!
    Farewell to foreign shores, We sail at break of day. Through our last night on shore, Drink to the foam. Until we meet once more. Here's wishing you a happy voyage home!

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    4

    Smile Followup on original message

    Getting a lot of good input and appreciate that greatly from all. Just to give a little more clarification to my original thread. We have several Carrier chillers; most are Aquaforce air cooled or similar. They range in size from 125ton to 300. As Engineering manager, I don’t directly work on the units but have around 12 techs that do. As you would expect their skill sets vary. We also call in Carrier to conduct some task. But in any case, I have noticed an increase in simple part failure such as condenser fans, pressure switches, etc that should last more than a year. One of units that was seven years old lost a control board. The Carrier tech said the board is obsolete and that particular unit was being phased out. He just gave me a great reason to consider other than Carrier. As with any manufacturing company we have many different types of machinery ranging greatly in levels of sophistication. I can tell you there is no big science here and there is no good reason these machines should have the problems that they often have. A new chiller should not loose five of its condenser fans by year two; that’s just poor craftsmanship. Carrier covered the parts by warranty but the downtime is killing us. One post said I should stay away from European chillers with no explanation why. I’ve seen a lot of these recently and I can’t see how it would be any different than the scores of other European machinery our factory has. True, parts and labor would be scarcer but if it means less unscheduled downtime, it would be worth it. Not trying to be un-American but I have hundreds of US jobs that count on our productivity.

  3. #42
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    Dec 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvolus View Post
    Getting a lot of good input and appreciate that greatly from all. Just to give a little more clarification to my original thread. We have several Carrier chillers; most are Aquaforce air cooled or similar. They range in size from 125ton to 300. As Engineering manager, I don’t directly work on the units but have around 12 techs that do. As you would expect their skill sets vary. We also call in Carrier to conduct some task. But in any case, I have noticed an increase in simple part failure such as condenser fans, pressure switches, etc that should last more than a year. One of units that was seven years old lost a control board. The Carrier tech said the board is obsolete and that particular unit was being phased out. He just gave me a great reason to consider other than Carrier. As with any manufacturing company we have many different types of machinery ranging greatly in levels of sophistication. I can tell you there is no big science here and there is no good reason these machines should have the problems that they often have. A new chiller should not loose five of its condenser fans by year two; that’s just poor craftsmanship. Carrier covered the parts by warranty but the downtime is killing us. One post said I should stay away from European chillers with no explanation why. I’ve seen a lot of these recently and I can’t see how it would be any different than the scores of other European machinery our factory has. True, parts and labor would be scarcer but if it means less unscheduled downtime, it would be worth it. Not trying to be un-American but I have hundreds of US jobs that count on our productivity.

    I think you may be one of many vitims of Corporate greed.
    It is not just a Carrier thing, (even though I am not a big Carrier fan), all Manuf. suffer from this mentality.
    Or should I say, the Customers suffer.
    When Co.s try to squeeze the last .01 cent out of production costs to increase profits, they put the squeeze on their vendors who provide the parts that make up their equipment.
    As long as warranty costs stay below a certain %, and units make it out of warranty period the downward spiral will continue.
    Also, I would bet money a lot of these parts were made in third world countrys, with low labor costs.

    You have to remember, most of these parts that are failing are not made by Carrier, Trane, York, etc. Most Major equipment manuf do not make their own components, with the possible exception of Compressors, and some control boards. Cond fans, contactors, relays, etc, are usually made by other Manuf.s that "specialize" in those components.
    Not trying to "preach", (just comes natural) you probably already know this.

    Until Customers start to demand quality rather than low price, and are willing to pay more for it get used to more failures and downtime.

  4. #43
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    Jan 2008
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    Dallas ,Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivewizard View Post
    I think you may be one of many vitims of Corporate greed.
    It is not just a Carrier thing, (even though I am not a big Carrier fan), all Manuf. suffer from this mentality.
    Or should I say, the Customers suffer.
    When Co.s try to squeeze the last .01 cent out of production costs to increase profits, they put the squeeze on their vendors who provide the parts that make up their equipment.
    As long as warranty costs stay below a certain %, and units make it out of warranty period the downward spiral will continue.
    Also, I would bet money a lot of these parts were made in third world countrys, with low labor costs.

    You have to remember, most of these parts that are failing are not made by Carrier, Trane, York, etc. Most Major equipment manuf do not make their own components, with the possible exception of Compressors, and some control boards. Cond fans, contactors, relays, etc, are usually made by other Manuf.s that "specialize" in those components.
    Not trying to "preach", (just comes natural) you probably already know this.

    Until Customers start to demand quality rather than low price, and are willing to pay more for it get used to more failures and downtime.
    I couldn`t agree with you more on the quality of parts made for the Big 3.
    UA 100

    It takes three people to do anything around here. Two do the work, one explains to the crowd of people who showed up when they seen smoke and flames.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    82
    Go with a turbocor product you wont believe the savings. We have several sites with various configurations both water cooled aircooled chillers and DX systems 2 of which we built ourselves the possibilities for this product are great and you will be seeing it alot more in the near future.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Brooklyn, New York
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    170
    Try getting prices from JCI lately? Like pulling teeth. As far as machines-TRANE. Hands down, whether its from Clarksville, Pueblo, Lacrosse, Macon or from the always secretive "Yellow Rock"- TRANE hands down. Its my pleasure to work on Trane Equipment. Heres my ranking(for what its worth):
    1. Trane
    2. York
    3. Carrier
    4. Arctic Chill (makes a nice modular chiller- nice to work on, except for the plated heat exchangers-thats another thread)
    5. McQuay

  7. #46
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    Dec 2008
    Location
    Richmond VA
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    I'm not going to push a product on you but air cooled chillers are packaged you're going to have winners and loosers with all manufactures. As an engineer you should know to look at the numbers. Luckily you're under 250 Tons so the ARI data provided should be certified and not an expected or calculated performance values.

    I don't know where you're located and I don't know you're system. I'm assuming most of the time you're going to be in a partload condition which would lead you to look at higher partload machine. Oh and always buy the 5 compressor warranty.

  8. #47
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    Aug 2009
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    4

    Chiller Brands

    Quote Originally Posted by brooklyntech View Post
    Try getting prices from JCI lately? Like pulling teeth. As far as machines-TRANE. Hands down, whether its from Clarksville, Pueblo, Lacrosse, Macon or from the always secretive "Yellow Rock"- TRANE hands down. Its my pleasure to work on Trane Equipment. Heres my ranking(for what its worth):
    1. Trane
    2. York
    3. Carrier
    4. Arctic Chill (makes a nice modular chiller- nice to work on, except for the plated heat exchangers-thats another thread)
    5. McQuay

    Thanks Brooklyntech! I see you as many others seem to like Trane. Would this be because they are easy to repair or they seldom need repair (sorry, I have to ask). I've heard many respond from a tech perspective; how about the consumer?

  9. #48
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    Dec 2004
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    Brooklyn, New York
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    Trane is user friendly. Great technical supportn parts availability + quality trained mechanics. Nothing wrong with other brands. Just preference. Someguys like Ford, others Chevy, me I'm a Dodge man. Long live 69 Charger.

  10. #49
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    Jan 2008
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    Dallas ,Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvolus View Post
    Thanks Brooklyntech! I see you as many others seem to like Trane. Would this be because they are easy to repair or they seldom need repair (sorry, I have to ask). I've heard many respond from a tech perspective; how about the consumer?
    You know you never said what kind of equipment you have. You also never elaborated on what kind of parts are supposed to be obselete, on your chillers?
    UA 100

    It takes three people to do anything around here. Two do the work, one explains to the crowd of people who showed up when they seen smoke and flames.

  11. #50
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    Sep 2009
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    San Juan, Puerto Rico
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    If your company production depends on it, go York, specially if your are selecting water cooled equipment, if you run a Department Store or any other comfort cooling application go with the others. In our area we have a lot of Pharmaceutical sites, 80% are York, that should tell you something!!

  12. #51
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    Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyJoDrFk View Post
    If your company production depends on it, go York, specially if your are selecting water cooled equipment, if you run a Department Store or any other comfort cooling application go with the others. In our area we have a lot of Pharmaceutical sites, 80% are York, that should tell you something!!
    What empirical data do you base your facts on, or is it just an opinion based on anecdotal observations and hearsay evidence?
    Low Pressure Forever!

    If you know heavy metal, you can work anywhere-Dave Andreson

    Anchors Aweigh my boys, Anchors Aweigh!
    Farewell to foreign shores, We sail at break of day. Through our last night on shore, Drink to the foam. Until we meet once more. Here's wishing you a happy voyage home!

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Dixiana, AL
    Posts
    2,609
    Since jci bought York and I/R bought Trane, I don't know that I'd want either one of 'em.

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